Diana Lin is an accomplished entrepreneur who has experienced a remarkable journey from architecture to real estate. Diana shares her valuable insights on various aspects of the commercial real estate industry, including partnership strategies, capital raising, and conquering fear in real estate investing.
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Transcript
Ash Patel (00:00.83)
Hello, best ever listeners. Welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I'm Ash Patel and I'm with today's guest, Diana Lin. Diana is joining us from Dallas, Texas. She is a partner at Navi Ventures, where she's focused on acquisitions and asset management of value add and ground up multifamily developments in Texas, Arizona and New Mexico. Diana's portfolio consists of being a GP on almost 700 units, an LP on over a thousand units and 150 units of ground up construction in multifamily. Diana, thank you for joining us and how are you today?
Diana Lin (00:40.204)
Hi Ash, thank you for having me. I'm good.
Ash Patel (00:43.286)
Well, good. Hey, if you would give the best ever listeners a little bit about your background and what you're focused on now.
Diana Lin (00:50.552)
Yeah, so right now I'm currently doing real estate investing full time. Prior to going into real estate, I was a practicing architect. So I still have my license, just in case this real estate don't work out for me. But I started off as an architect and worked as a, for about 10 years.
And when I first got started, I actually went to China and worked there for about two years. Because at the time I graduated, it was in the midst of recession. So it was impossible to find a job in real estate or in architecture in general. So China had a lot of opportunity for building and designing. And so China was a place that I was there for my first two years at a graduation.
Afterwards, I came back to Texas where my hometown, I went to Houston first for about a year, and then I found myself in Dallas because my husband's actually born or raised in Dallas, so I kind of found myself in this city, Dallas. Practiced for another couple of years until got more into real estate investing and gradually transitioned over to doing it full-time. So we, our company is called Navi Ventures. It's a company that my husband and I started. We started investing in real estate in 20, 18. Um, and we were passively investing first in, um, multifamily deals. So, um, we invested in a handful of deals until 2021, when there was a couple of deals that actually went full cycle in.
We saw the power of real estate and decided to go into it, at least for myself, full time. And so in 2021 is when we started looking for deals to sponsor ourselves instead of being a passive investor. And we found a deal in Arizona, a 22 unit deal. And that was our first multifamily deal that we sponsored with a partner of ours. And we slowly started to gain some more properties over the past few years. And so right now, I mean, those type of deals that we were sponsoring, there are more in the multifamily value add space. So there are existing properties that we find and then we improve it. And then after three to five years, we sell it and give the returns back to our investors. Currently, we are still doing multifamily value add, but we're looking more into the development space as well as land entitlement. So we're kind of expanding our reach. So I think, for me naturally as an architect, I've always been sort of gravitated toward the development sector because I like building stuff from scratch, right? So the multifamily passive investing is really sort of a stepping stone to get more into the goal of development.
Ash Patel (04:15.106)
Got it. A lot of questions. You are very high in demand. Actually, you're very high in demand now as an architect, but you found your calling with commercial real estate. The 22 unit deal in Arizona. Do you still own that today?
Diana Lin (04:30.893)
Yes, we're still in operation.
Ash Patel (04:32.99)
Okay, what was the purchase price, do you remember?
Diana Lin (04:36.548)
Yeah, it was $3.4 million.
Ash Patel (04:40.862)
And were you able to raise rents on that property?
Diana Lin (04:43.84)
Yes, quite a bit actually. The original rent was about $900 and we were able to bump it up to $1300 or $1400.
Ash Patel (04:58.386)
You've done the renovations by now on all the properties.
Diana Lin (05:01.184)
Yes, so the capex has been done after six to nine months.
Ash Patel (05:07.146)
Why not sell it now?
Diana Lin (05:09.86)
Why not spell it as in, oh, right. The market is not quite ready for us to sell it. It is, we're in a situation in the market where there is a cap rate expansion, right? The rent has kind of plateaued a little bit, we can't quite bump it up as much. I mean, we have sort of shopped around for some buyers to bid on it, but we decided that it was not quite ready to sell. So we're still holding onto it. It's still cash flows. So we're not in a hurry to sell.
Ash Patel (05:54.69)
Do you have fixed debt on that property?
Diana Lin (05:58.206)
Uh, yes we do.
Ash Patel (05:59.422)
Okay, well, let's dive into that for a second. Interest rates are gonna continue to rise and rents have plateaued and even in some of the hottest markets, they're starting to decline. So how is this gonna get better? Why not sell today versus, you know, further cap rate expansion, reduction in rents and less buyers out there?
Diana Lin (06:25.764)
Right, yeah, so the idea is that, you know, we had it locked in at a pretty good rate relative to now, right, so if we are to sell it and to try to find deals that sort of match that kind of, be able to get that similar return, it'll be kind of a little bit more difficult. Also the fact that capital is a little bit harder to raise, right?
So we kind of took all that to an account and we want to sort of wait and see what kind of better opportunities are out there in terms of offers.
Ash Patel (07:08.962)
Diana, you have investors on this deal, correct? Was there a timeline in which you proposed that they would get their money back? Because in 2018, or 21 rather, the name of the game was three to five years and you get your money back, right? So have you had that conversation with investors where, look, this may not be the ideal time to sell, but we're cash flowing, so are you okay with extending this timeline?
Diana Lin (07:37.92)
Yeah, I mean, we actually haven't had a conversation with our investors because, well, in terms of, we haven't had investors ask us about selling now rather than later, right? We bought it back in 2021, November of 2021, so really it's only been two years. What we did tell our investors when we were raising the money is that it could be between three to five years hold.
But to be conservative, we tell our investors to expect a five-year hold. And right now, it seems more likely it would be a five-year hold, depending on where the market is now, because we're always monitoring where it's going. But at the moment, it doesn't seem like the right time to sell.
Ash Patel (08:28.898)
Diana, how often do you communicate with investors?
Diana Lin (08:32.376)
We communicate them on a monthly basis. So we have monthly updates that we write up toward the end of the month, and we shoot it out to our investors. That sort of keeps them in the loop in understanding about the current performance of the property, the projection, and the reason why a certain expense is high or income is low. So we like to keep our investors informed on what our property is doing.
Ash Patel (09:02.806)
That's a lot of detail.
Diana Lin (09:04.728)
Yeah, no, it is. We have the total expense list out, we have the total income listed out, and we also have the NOI, and also the year to date NOI, because we have a budget that we work with our investors. And so we compare that as the metrics of what we are expecting for the performance of the property. So that helps keep our investors informed, and we haven't had any complaints about being overly detailed.
Ash Patel (09:34.266)
No, and you're not going to get complaints. I think that's great. I applaud you for that. So you have a co-sponsor on this deal. Can you explain the dynamics between you and the co-sponsor?
Diana Lin (09:41.924)
Thank you.
Diana Lin (09:48.664)
Um, yeah, so it depends on the deal because right now we're in, oh, first deal. Yes. Uh-huh. Yeah. So, um, are, I wouldn't call them co-sponsors. They're kind of, uh, partners because I think in syndication world co-sponsors has a different kind of, uh, title, I believe. But anyways, um, they, there are general partners. They're actually, um, are, uh, more experienced partner that we lean on. Right. So, because this is our first deal, we did not plan on doing it ourselves, right? Because our experience really before our 22-unit deal, we were experienced as a passive investor, right? But we didn't have any experience as an operator, right? So we knew that in order for us to learn how to be a general partner and to be fair to our investors as well, that we're going to be able to do that need to find experienced partners to help us understand the whole process and make sure that we're not making too many mistakes. So we had a partner that was way more experienced than we were to basically work with us on this deal. So if it wasn't for them, we never would have gotten this deal.
Ash Patel (11:10.09)
Who found the deal?
Diana Lin (11:11.77)
our partner.
Ash Patel (11:13.002)
Okay, what did you give up to partner with this entity?
Diana Lin (11:19.052)
Yeah, so because we came in with limited experience and they came in with a lot more experience, right? We definitely had to give up, I wouldn't say give up, but to say have smaller shares, right, as a GP. Instead of 50-50, right, they would have a bigger cut and we have a smaller cut.
And we were completely fine with that because we knew that we were learning and we can offer from our expertise really, I mean, we raised the bulk of the money, right? And we also are pretty much the active asset managers for the property and they don't have to be as involved because they can focus on larger projects, right?
Like our background, like my background as an architect, and then there's my husband, who's a partner at Navi Ventures, he's a real estate lawyer, right? So we both have fairly technical backgrounds that relates to real estate, right? So we were able to sort of leverage our experience to really kind of offer a lot more to the table than if it wasn't anything related to real estate.
Ash Patel (12:38.53)
And that's a great outlook, right? Do whatever it takes to be able to learn from more experienced partners. So again, great work on that great outlook on the deal. Look, I'll give up whatever as long as I can learn and I can level up from this From this group that's been doing it for much longer. Great You so look we just got to 22 units and you've got a total of 648 units that you're a GP on. Give us a bit of an overview on that progression.
Diana Lin (13:11.004)
Yeah, I mean, it was a big jump from our first deal to our second deal, right? We had a second deal that we sponsored, which is half a year later, right? It was same partner, but different deal, and it's in the Tucson market, right? We were already partners with the same partner on a 22 unit deal and then they had this other larger deal, which is a 232 unit deal in Tucson. And so we partnered with them on that deal to raise money and also for investor relation. And we knew that because we've already worked with them before on our first deal, that we trusted them already to be able to run this deal pretty well.
So the 22 unit deal, Navi Ventures and my partner, we're both lead sponsors, right? In this Tucson deal, it's a 232 unit deal, big difference, still not at the level of being able to handle that capacity yet, but our partner was the lead sponsor on that. So we knew based on our working relationship that they knew what they're doing. So we knew based on that, that we wanted to part with them on this deal. So that was our second deal. And then on our third deal is actually in Dallas, is a little bit smaller, sorry, actually it's different partners. And what's interesting about that is, going back our first and second deal, we were partnered with,
Ash Patel (14:51.042)
Same partner?
Diana Lin (15:05.54)
the same group and they also had their own networking and mastermind that we were part of, right? Through that network and group that we were part of, we were asked to partner with a different group that was also part of that mastermind, right? So the third one is the 150 unit deal in Dallas. And that was
from networking and getting to know these people pretty well. So we recently closed on that deal, 152-Hootie-Hootie unit deal this year in March. So we're in the process of stabilizing that one. So yeah.
Ash Patel (15:51.702)
Diana, on the second deal that you've done, the one in Tucson, what did you bring to the table?
Diana Lin (15:58.416)
What we brought to the table was kind of similar to the first one, which is the capital, the raising capital. And so it's a little bit more limited capacity, because we're not going to be doing a lot of work, right, which is the bulk of like lead sponsoring, right. So that's kind of our involvement is to raise capital and then still be part of the monthly calls, but our leads sponsor is the one who's running the ship.
Ash Patel (16:33.118)
Okay, so one of your values seems to be that you're great at raising capital. What's your secret to raising capital?
Diana Lin (17:01.324)
Um, so we, um, the secret really, what we found is the people that trust you and know you the most are those that will invest with you. So you know, funny story is, you know, when we were starting to invest in 2018 for about three years, about 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, we were mostly investing as a passive investor. So we didn't really put ourselves out there that we were going to sponsor a deal or anything like that. We had no sort of advertising or platform of any sort. But when we shifted in 2021 to start to look for deals as a general partner is when we had to start to tell people that we're in this position now.
And so when we had an existing investor database that we never really cultivated the relationship too deeply. Even when we reached out to that investor database, there was not much response, right? But it's really the people that knew us well are those that ends up investing with you. So...
That was kind of an experience that we had. And really what we heard from others as well is the first deal is going to be the toughest because it's your first deal, right?
Ash Patel (18:40.051)
Yeah, it's wait a minute, Diana, I thought you were an architect. Now you're a real estate entrepreneur. What's going on? So you got to explain that right?
Diana Lin (18:45.531)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, you're not out there telling people you're not doing real estate. You're telling people you're an architect. And suddenly you come out of the blue. Oh, you're raising capital for this multi-family deal? What do you know? Right? So it's kind of, yeah, exactly.
Ash Patel (18:56.65)
And your husband's a lawyer. So wait a minute. Whoa, what are you doing? You're an architect and lawyer. Now they're raising money. Good. So you had to have those conversations.
Diana Lin (19:02.848)
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So it's kind of, we didn't quite prepare them of letting them know that we've shifted this direction. And so that that's kind of an insight and lesson learned that we wish we did sooner than later. Right. And so, you know, the first deal that was mostly friends and family.
Then when we were out there a little bit longer networking and talking to people, we started to field different investors outside of the family friend circuit.
Ash Patel (19:43.214)
How did you have that conversation? You said you wished that you had done that sooner. Did you send out a newsletter? Was it emails? What was it?
Diana Lin (19:48.589)
Yeah.
Yeah, so I mean, you know, what they say is like never start raising capital when you need it, right? So you got to sort of build that relationship even prior to raising capital, maintaining and touching base with your investors every other month, right? Even though that may take time, it's essential to sort of get in touch with them to understand what their investment goals are or what their pain points are having that tough conversation and looking out for those types of deals that meets their need, right?
Ash Patel (20:27.786)
And one of the best referrals is from existing investors. Are you doing anything to cultivate your investors, bringing you, their friends and family and colleagues as additional investors?
Diana Lin (20:40.156)
Yeah, so we definitely are looking to lean more heavily on that to ask for referrals. We haven't had to do that quite earlier this year, but that is something that we look forward to actually doing this year.
Ash Patel (21:01.206)
Got it. Ground up development in multifamily, is that something you're doing now?
Diana Lin (21:07.624)
Yes, so we're actively looking for deals for Ground Up Multifamily and also have one project in the work that we're focusing on. So there is one that we're working on.
Ash Patel (21:25.194)
What about buying existing value add? That's your bread and butter, right? That's what got you where you are today. How's the search for that? It's tough.
Diana Lin (21:29.292)
Yes, yes, exactly. Yeah. So, oh man, it's tough. But we're optimistic because everyone says, stay patient, because there's going to be a lot more deals coming up in the next few months, right? Because of distress properties. So we're still on the lookout for distress properties. But in the meantime, if
If there isn't good deals for an existing field, then we'll just build it ourselves.
Ash Patel (22:05.566)
Okay, can I push back a little bit? Okay, you've got a great mindset with pivoting. I mean, you went to China because you couldn't find an architect job in the States, right? And here you are. The existing deals on multifamily are not penciling out. They're not meeting your standards and the standards of most investors. So you're looking at either waiting until there's some distress out there.
Diana Lin (22:18.777)
Yeah.
Ash Patel (22:34.978)
But I feel like everybody is sitting on the sidelines waiting, right? And there's a lot of large syndicators that are already creating a rescue fund or a distress fund where as soon as there's some properties that are hurting, not even, you know, foreclosure, just a little bit of distress, they're going to pounce in and take them down. So yes, deals are difficult to find today, but I think when you start seeing distress deals, there's going to be that same level of competition.
from people sitting on the sidelines. So what can you do to pivot? I get the building of new multifamily and I feel like there's a fair amount of headwind in that as well, right? Construction costs, variable rate loans, especially on construction, because you can't, you can't get a fixed loan for the build. It's at the mercy of what the market is. And then with the Fed continuing to increase rates, who knows what the underwriting model looks like on the new construction. Now, I think new construction makes a lot of sense when rents are continuing to rise and cap rates are continuing to fall. So what can you do to pivot even more than you're doing now?
Diana Lin (23:41.116)
Mm-hmm.
Diana Lin (23:47.828)
Yeah, no, that's a great question. Those are all very valid concerns. And it really is to dig in deep to find deals that works in a creative way, right? And so interestingly enough, same situation, the ground up development deal that I'm working on is also partnered with an experienced developer, right? Because that's kind of been our business model, always partner with those that know more than you, right? Because the experienced partner has a deep relationship with the banks and also have really good insight on the market, right? Being able to leverage that and to make a deal pencil is critical. So leaning on more experience real estate developers or syndicators, I think would be pretty key in being able to find deals. And you're saying, you know, what you touch upon is the interest rate being pretty high for traditional banks, but there are ways to make deals pencil with maybe not established bank, right? Maybe having a deal struck with private lenders, right?
And because there is still a lot of capital out there, right? There's a lot of dry powders being built up and people, or these private equity companies are needing deals to place their capital. So they're working with the general partners or developers to work with them and make the deal work, right? So even though it is true that it is hard to find deals because it's competitive, I do believe in just, you know, continuing to look in, continuing to build your relationship and lean on someone experienced, then a good deal would pop up.
Ash Patel (26:04.718)
I agree with you. If I understand your business model correctly, it's you partner with either developers or syndicators who have great deals and you add value everywhere you can, whether it's expertise, experience, or bringing investor capital to the table. Is that right?
Diana Lin (26:24.452)
Yeah, I think we are working with that business model for now until we feel confident enough that we would be able to handle deals on our own.
Ash Patel (26:35.818)
Why have you considered partnering with people in the medical space or industrial or fast food or triple net properties?
Diana Lin (26:44.665)
Thank you.
So partnering with medical professionals as a way.
Ash Patel (26:49.918)
Sorry, not medical professionals, but people that either buy or build medical doctors' offices or medical facilities.
Diana Lin (26:57.596)
I think what, and that's a good question, but you know, what we, because we're focused on more of the multifamily assets, right? We know the multifamily investment space pretty well, or how to underwrite. So we kind of stick to our lane. And if we try to branch out into multiple asset types, then we're going to, we're going to not stay focused, right? So we want to stay in our lane and get really good at it. And then once we're comfortable with it, then we can sort of branch out and expand on that.
Ash Patel (27:34.867)
I feel like that's an excuse.
Diana Lin (27:36.984)
Yeah, and if there are really good opportunities out there, I'm not gonna say no, right?
Ash Patel (27:41.522)
Yeah, look, you understand real estate, right? And now you even understand development. So I don't think it's that difficult to pivot and learn industrial, learn flex, learn medical, learn triple net retail. Sorry, I like to push back, right? So you've again, got a great mindset. You've...
Diana Lin (27:58.609)
Mm-hmm.
Diana Lin (28:02.404)
Oh yeah, no, it makes a lot of sense. Ha ha ha.
Ash Patel (28:09.002)
pivoted when across the world you've pushed yourself. So I would love to see you continuing to push yourself and open your horizons to different asset classes. Just put it in the back of your mind, put it in your pocket and just let it toss it around your head a little bit and just see if that's something you'd be interested in, right? And then go out and find
Diana Lin (28:18.68)
Yes.
Diana Lin (28:28.3)
Oh yeah, yeah. I mean, I think it's definitely a good advice to kind of push yourself outside of your comfort zone, right?
Ash Patel (28:35.754)
Yeah, maybe find a developer who's done multifamily and maybe some flex space where the first floor was retail, apartments above it, right? And that's a good segue, it's a good transition for multifamily people to get into commercial. And with your development background, your architecture background, there's some incredible class A flex buildings with retail on the first floor, maybe even some parking below that and apartments above it.
Diana Lin (28:44.732)
Mm-hmm.
Diana Lin (28:52.748)
Mm-hmm.
Diana Lin (29:05.393)
Mm-hmm.
Ash Patel (29:05.718)
And it's a great niche that I'm sure you can learn very easily. Right. So just.
Diana Lin (29:10.144)
Oh yeah, for sure. I think that type of model is something I'm definitely interested in to have that sort of mixed use development.
Ash Patel (29:17.67)
Yeah, I would love to see you add all of these assets to your arsenal. Right? So you're not hyper-focused on multifamily. And if multifamily ever comes back with the high returns and less competition, by all means go into that, you know, all in on multifamily. But while there might be other asset classes that are highly sought after and highly profitable, I think you owe it to yourself to explore those.
Diana Lin (29:21.925)
Mm-hmm.
Ash Patel (29:45.47)
And this goes for all the best ever listeners. This is nothing new that I'm saying of, I've always tried to push people into looking at every piece of real estate as a potential deal.
Diana Lin (29:45.593)
Mm-hmm. Right.
Diana Lin (29:56.936)
Mm-hmm, right. And exploring to different asset types will take a lot of educating. So that's kind of what we did for multifamily. We learned first before doing. But doing is also learning, right? So I completely agree with you, Ash, is to keep your mind open and explore different avenues of investing and not just one, but also
Ash Patel (30:05.949)
Yes.
Diana Lin (30:25.86)
continue to educate yourself on how to analyze these deals.
Ash Patel (30:30.654)
Yeah, and sorry, I'll stop on my soapbox here. But Diana, you've had an incredible run in a very short amount of time. What do you think one of the keys to your success was?
Diana Lin (30:45.404)
Yeah, so one of the keys that I think helped me is to, I would always say this, and it's really relationship. And all the deals that we're part of is not possible without relationship. So education is definitely important, but relationship is to me even more.
Ash Patel (31:16.854)
The other end of that question is, although you've been very successful, do you ever look back and think, if I had done A, B, or C, I could have been a lot further ahead?
Diana Lin (31:29.716)
Yes, for sure. I wish I was more open to investing sooner than later. And I still remember this experience. My sister, so I have a twin sister, by the way, and she's also in real estate. So she
Ash Patel (31:31.874)
What are some of those things?
Diana Lin (31:54.368)
was pushing me to start buying some single family rentals because she was buying a couple on her own, right? And so my mindset at that time was like, no, I'm not ready. I still need to wait and build up my savings. Real estate sounded risky, but it was kind of the unknown and fear that held me back. If I were to really deep dive and learn more about how to do it, then it wouldn't be as scary, right?
And you're never going to know everything before you start doing a deal. So to me, you learn the most by just doing, right? So, but don't do it blindly. You still have to have guidance. Um, and uh, be smart about it. So I wish that I invested sooner than later. But it was also a mutual decision between my husband and I, I needed him to be on board before we started investing. So once we both were ready, then we started investing. But if we were to have that decision earlier, I feel like we would have been a little bit further. So that's kind of a lesson for us.
Ash Patel (33:17.138)
Yeah, the fear, it seems it's held me. I mean, it's cost me years and years. Um, is there something that you do or is there advice you would give to somebody that's too scared to get involved? There may be, they're too scared to level up, right? They want to stick to their single family houses and they don't want to buy a four family because they're scared. They don't know about apartments. What, what, what would your advice be to help them overcome that fear?
Diana Lin (33:37.925)
Mm-hmm.
Diana Lin (33:45.849)
Um, I think that.
Diana Lin (33:51.836)
Talking to someone that you trust that is doing well in the industry helps that individual to step outside their comfort zone. If it's someone that they are not that familiar, that is someone that they just sort of saw online, there's not going to be a trust factor. But once there's that trust established and the value and content that they provide is helpful and applies to them, then it helps that individual sort of step outside the comfort zone and do it because of that trust. It's like, okay, you're not that scam artist that I think you are. You're actually someone trustworthy and know what you're doing and you're pretty successful at that. So that's what I think.
Ash Patel (34:42.63)
I love that. And best ever listeners, please, we all have some fear that's holding us back in some way. It might not be real estate related or investing related, but that was great advice. And thank you for sharing that. So listen to that again. Hit that 30 second rewind button. That was great advice on conquering fear. What is your best real estate investing advice ever?
Diana Lin (35:02.512)
Thank you.
Diana Lin (35:07.528)
Oh man. Best real estate investing advice. Trust, but verify.
Ash Patel (35:17.686)
Got it. Diana, are you ready for the best ever lightning round? All right. What's the... That was a confident... Yeah, that was a... Was that a question? Hey, so the first question, who's the favorite, you or your twin sister? Don't answer that. I'm kidding. Don't answer that. These are recorded. Don't answer that. Okay. Lightning round. What's the best ever book you recently read?
Diana Lin (35:42.532)
I just recently finished reading The Go Giver by Bob Berg. It's awesome. The idea of just giving instead of sort of thinking about yourself, right? Though giving would have so much more outsize return than you can ever imagine. So that idea, I just knew it was kind of there, but like to have it written in a book, to tell it to kind of verify that is pretty impactful.
Ash Patel (36:14.802)
And anybody who's followed that advice will attest to the fact that it works. Diana, what's the best ever way you like to give back?
Diana Lin (36:18.757)
Mm-hmm.
Diana Lin (36:23.556)
Best every way I like to give back is when I talk to people, I try my best to help connect them to be to their goal or to what they need. So that helped me get to where I am is to through connections. So what I'd like to do now is always ask even strangers like, what can I do to help you? So
providing connections or referrals or businesses that would help them get to the next step.
Ash Patel (36:57.142)
Diana, how can the best ever listeners reach out to you?
Diana Lin (37:01.352)
Through my email, it's dianna at navi.ventures.com. And you can also find me on LinkedIn. I post occasionally, so please give me a follow.
Ash Patel (37:16.61)
Diana, thank you for your time today and sharing a pretty cool journey. 2008, couldn't find a job in the States as an architect, went all the way to China and just a lot of pivots there. And thank you for being so open with your entire journey. We really appreciate your time.
Diana Lin (37:34.668)
No, thank you, Ash, for giving me your time, too.
Ash Patel (37:37.686)
Best ever listeners, thank you for joining us as well. If you enjoy this episode, please leave us a five star review. Share this podcast with someone you think can benefit from it. Also follow subscribe and have a best ever day. Great job. Nice work.
Diana Lin (37:52.037)
Thank you.