In this insightful episode, commercial real estate investor Justin discusses valuable insights and trends in the industry. Join the conversation as he shares his experiences in managing and growing his portfolio. From the evolving demand for one-bedroom apartments to the secrets of managing studios, Justin delves into what it takes to succeed in the dynamic world of commercial real estate.
Key Takeaways:
- Shifting Apartment Demand: Justin highlights the changing landscape of apartment demand, emphasizing the surprising growth in one-bedroom units. He explores the factors driving this shift and how it relates to broader economic trends.
- Maximizing Studio Apartments: Justin shares his strategies for success with studios, from managing turnovers to optimizing rental income. His insights shed light on why studios are in high demand and how to capitalize on their appeal.
- Thought Leadership and Branding: Justin's best-ever advice revolves around building a thought leadership platform. He stresses the importance of utilizing social media, podcasts, blogs, and meetups to showcase your expertise and attract valuable opportunities in the commercial real estate industry.
Justin Goodin | Real Estate Background
- Next Level Equity
- Portfolio:
- 500 units
- Based in: Indianapolis, IN
- Say hi to him at:
- Best Ever Book: Limitless by Jim Kwik
- Greatest Lesson: Choose quality over price when it comes to contractors. It can make or break your entire project.
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Transcript
Narrator:
Quick disclaimer, the views and opinions expressed in this podcast are provided for informational purposes only and should not be construed as an offer to buy or sell any securities or to make or consider any investment or course of action. For more information, go to bestevershow.com.
Justin Goodin:
Create a thought leadership platform, whether that's a podcast like this, a local meetup or posting on LinkedIn or a blog. Do something to get your name out there, get your brand out there and tell people what you're doing, what you're working on. And you'll be amazed by the kind of people and opportunities that come to you.
Narrator:
Welcome to the best ever show, the world's longest running daily commercial real estate podcast. Our hosts interview commercial real estate experts every day to get you the best advice ever with none of the fluffy stuff.
Slocomb Reed:
Best ever listeners, welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I'm Slocomb Reed and today we are joined by Justin Goodin. Justin is joining us from Indianapolis, Indiana. His company is Next Level Equity. They focus on real estate syndications, buying medium and large scale multifamily deals, primarily in the Indianapolis market with their investors. Their current portfolio consists of over 500 multifamily units. Justin, can you tell us a little bit more about your background, which you're currently focused on?
Justin Goodin:
Yeah, happy to. Thanks for having me too.
I'm here in Indianapolis, Indiana. I've been here my whole life. I got my first taste of real estate. Like many investors investing in fix and flips and single family houses. And I quickly found out that it was not passive. It was really just a job on top of the job I already had at the moment, which was going to school and working.
So quickly found out that residential real estate was not for me and started doing a lot of self education, reading books, listening to podcasts, just like this and gravitated towards real estate syndications and raising capital from investors to scale your business larger. And all of that really intrigued me. So after graduation, where I studied finance and supply chain management at a business school, I started working for a commercial bridge lender as a multifamily underwriter. So I did that for a number of years before going full-time into real estate syndications. And now we're really active here in Indiana by medium and large size multifamily properties. It's mainly been existing B and C class assets. However, we're moving a lot more into the A and B class space and working on our first kind of development deal here coming the first of next year.
Slocomb Reed:
Justin, what has you transitioning into the more A and B class space?
Part of the reason I ask is that given the economic climate we're experiencing now in the fourth quarter of 2023, there are a lot of people who would typically shy away from class A apartments, given the possibility of an impending recession. The general consensus is that B and possibly C classes are a safer place to play during a recession because people, if they see inflation spike again or incomes start to fall, they're going to move into more affordable areas. Why go into A and B class now?
Justin Goodin:
My experience has been C-class assets can be great, but you really have to do your analysis really conservative. You have to know the area of town you're buying in. The C-class assets can be good, but they have a lot more maintenance issues, a lot more headaches with the tenants, lower quality tenants. And in my experience, the A and the B class assets have better quality tenants. They earn more money. They're usually in fantastic areas of town. They're newer.
They're going to be more competitive at sale. Some of these 1960s and 1970s properties are just getting older and older every year. And it's hard for me to kind of imagine sometimes when we're buying these older properties and then seeing that exit sales price in five, six years. To me, I just feel like A-class properties are going to be more in demand. And these tenants are earning a lot higher wages than some of these tenants in the B and the C class assets.
So as we know, inflation is really rampant right now and hitting a lot of C-class tenants really hard. Plus there's low repayments, a lot of credit card debt is becoming more and more expensive and increasing. So pros and cons to every strategy. But for me, it's just been making a lot more sense to buy these newer quality assets with a little bit of higher quality tenants in the A and sort of B class space.
Slocomb Reed:
Fun facts for the best ever listeners...
Justin and I met because he cold texted me on some C-class apartments I own in the Cincinnati market. Depending on where you are in Indy and where you are in Cincy, it's about a two hour drive and it's fast, flat and boring and straight the whole way. So cross-pollinating on the markets makes a lot of sense. Going into a place like Indy or Dayton or Columbus or Louisville from Indianapolis or from Cincinnati makes a lot of sense. Based on the deals you're underwriting currently, Justin.
What are the differences in returns or return projections in the class A, B, and C deals that you're seeing?
Justin Goodin:
That's a great question. We're still shooting for some of like the more like market returns that I think most investors want to see in a real estate syndication. So we're typically targeting a five-year IRR anywhere from 14 to 16%. We're still targeting an equity multiple of at least 1.9 or 2X equity multiple over five years.
The cash on cash is really, as you know, like more a result of the market and interest rates. Obviously, we're in a time where interest rates are extremely high. So higher interest rates mean the mortgage payment is more expensive, which equals less cash flow to investors. But yeah, to answer your question, if we could find an average cash on cash anywhere between four, five, maybe 6% nowadays, I would consider that a good deal.
Slocomb Reed:
So how do those returns differ based on the properties that you're looking at A, B, and C class?
Justin Goodin:
I wouldn't say they differ too much. It's like any deal, we're looking at any class. Good deals are hard to find, but you can still find these acceptable returns in the A class space and the B class space. At least in my experience, there's still a lot of good value-add opportunities with the A class space.
A common misconception is you're buying these properties that have no value add components, and I found that not to be true. There's still really decent rent growth. Sometimes owners don't implement valet trash. We always implement a internet revenue sharing program, car ports, building garages, all sort of these other things that you could do to A-class properties. We found that those strategies to be really successful in this space as well.
Slocomb Reed:
Are you saying that you're finding more value-add opportunities or additional revenue stream opportunities in a spaces and is it because that tenant base has higher income and is willing to pay for more if we can call a carport and amenities are willing to pay for more amenities yet?
Justin Goodin:
Correct. I think it's accurate.
Slocomb Reed:
You're also doing, is that your first ground up multifamily construction deal in indianapolis right now?
Justin Goodin:
That is correct. Yeah, in the suburb of Indianapolis but yes.
Slocomb Reed:
I'd like to hear more about that. Why you chose the market you chose to go ground up and then what it is that you saw in the ground up opportunity?
Justin Goodin:
Great question. So the opportunity that I saw is really kind of just building a very unique product from scratch from the ground up. We're always seeing these awesome A-class deals and nicer properties in this part of town that we want to buy and kind of like what you mentioned before, but really good deals are hard to find. And the truth is if you have a really nice asset right now.
You probably don't want to sell it in this industry environment. So to me, it made more sense to pick a thriving part of Indianapolis and build a unique product in this market that we can serve to the residents there.
Slocomb Reed:
How do your return projections compared to the value-added deals you've been underwriting?
Justin Goodin:
A lot higher on this one. So we have around a 19% IRR, a little bit over two X equity multiple on this property.
And that's because the city has actually given us a very large incentive, which really decreases the cost of capital we have on our deal. So in exchange for making the area better and providing jobs to the area and making more housing, the city is actually giving us a pretty decent incentive to build this property, which helps out a lot.
Slocomb Reed:
Tell us more about that incentive, both what it is and how you came about it.
Justin Goodin:
Yeah, it all came from relationships with the city.
And kind of just knowing the right people to talk to. New construction deals are extremely difficult to pencil out right now, virtually impossible with the interest rates. So it really came down from relationships, getting a project that not only we want, but also the city wants. So in exchange for all the benefits that come with a mixed use property and the relationships that we had with the city, we ended up figuring out a win-win situation with us in the city and made a really good deal for the both of us to build this project. It's basically just a grant. It's a zero interest loan that we don't have to pay back.
Slocomb Reed:
That sounds like the kind of thing that comes with strings attached, Justin. Can you tell us about those strings?
Justin Goodin:
Yeah, there's absolutely no strings attached. It's a 100% market rate community. No affordability restrictions. It's a really good deal for both sides.
Slocomb Reed:
Are there any conditions on the zero interest and no repayment?
Justin Goodin:
No conditions. We pay taxes when the property is built. That's the condition.
Slocomb Reed:
So. Gotcha. So you preempted my next question. Thank you for that, Justin. I was going to ask about the property taxes as soon as the property was built. You'll effectively be assessed at the properties as constructed value and begin paying full property taxes. Day one.
Justin Goodin:
Not day one when we receive CFO, once it's stabilized, we'll start paying taxes like any stabilized multifamily property in the area. So yes.
Slocomb Reed:
Gotcha, that makes a lot of sense. Which you would be doing regardless if it were existing supply that you were acquiring. But at least this way you're getting that. And it makes sense for the government as well to give you that upfront incentive in order to generate residual income for themselves in the form of your tax money.
Justin Goodin:
Absolutely.
Slocomb Reed:
What would you say has been the biggest struggle thus far in building the portfolio that you have in Indianapolis?
Justin Goodin:
Yeah, the biggest struggle that I would say is just finding the right team to work with. So there's tons of people out there in this space that are active in real estate syndications. In my experience, you really just have to be careful about who you partner with, who you work with, and that could be from other general partners on the deal with you. That could be the lender you're working with, the property manager company. So as you know, when you're buying these multimillion dollar properties, you need a team and there's many different members on that team.
So in order to have a successful real estate syndication from start to finish, the team, in my opinion, is the most important part. And that's been the most difficult part that I would say is just finding the right people to work with, the right team members, right management companies. There are a lot of moving parts, but it's a continuous process to make it better.
Slocomb Reed:
That makes a lot of sense. Justin, I don't know the Indianapolis market all that well, and I know it's not the same as Cincinnati, but on a national scale, there are a lot of similar.
Within Indianapolis right now, within that metro, where are you seeing the most opportunity? Or what parts of the metro area are you gravitating towards with regards to the deals that you're seeing and the opportunity to either buy or put together?
Justin Goodin:
We're seeing a lot of awesome opportunity throughout the Indianapolis MSA. And some of the suburbs around Indianapolis are sort of like the prime markets and where we're focusing a lot of our efforts on right now as well.
But Indianapolis in general has just always been a really strong, very stable, consistent market. Yardi Matrix, which is a large third-party data company, a few months ago, came out with a recent report showing that Indianapolis is actually leading the nation in rank growth right now, and that was in August or September of 23, I believe. And a lot of the other markets that you always hear about, you know, like the Miami, Dallas, Austin, while those are awesome markets to invest in. A lot of those markets have been a little bit inflated the past couple of years. And those markets are actually achieving flat or even negative rent growth right now. So the Midwest in general, and especially Indianapolis has just always been a very stable, very consistent place to invest and also very business friendly and very landlord friendly at the same time.
Narrator:
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Slocomb Reed:
Justin, I was at the Best Ever Conference this past year. Next is coming up in March. Go to besteverconference.com for more info. Shameless plug, also unintended. I wasn't trying to do that. But at the Best Ever Conference this past year, we were hearing a lot about the doom and gloom coming to those Southwestern markets, a couple of them that you mentioned, based on what can be overgeneralized as being the volatility of those markets, as high as they've gotten. The same market factors that have led to the appreciation are likely to result in falling values, the supply and demand curve inverting from what it has been for the last several years.
And what my Midwestern investing buddies and I all agreed on at the conference was that the Midwest is boring. Everybody knows that, but there are times in the market cycle where boring is exactly what you want. And this appears to be one of those times. It was just a year ago that Cincinnati was topping those charts. It makes sense for it to be Indianapolis now.
Why would you say it is that Indianapolis is on the top of that red growth chart nationally right now?
Justin Goodin:
It's just a very affordable place to live and it just hasn't been inflated. Like some of those other markets, even during COVID and 2020, 2021 properties were definitely selling at low cap rates, but something crazy, like some of the markets that we mentioned, and there is some decent population growth here as well, there's a lot of fortunate 500 companies in Indianapolis and most of all, like I mentioned, it's just always been a more affordable place to live, positively speaking to other markets.
Slocomb Reed:
Yeah, that affordability was in high demand, especially going through COVID. And I try to remind myself that at the end of the day, everything comes back down to supply and demand. And so it's just a question of the factors you're seeing and how they impact supply and demand. And while the demand has not been as high for the last 10 years, for apartments and markets like ours.
We also haven't seen the increases in supply that other markets have as well. Deals like yours building apartments in Indianapolis are much more the exception than the rule. Whereas in Texas and Arizona and some other places, it's been the rule and not the exception. And what that has led to is demand outpacing supply in places like Cincinnati and Indianapolis, which is leading to still solid rent growth. Bit of a nerd moment here and outing myself a bit.
I'm asking this question in part because I want to answer it for the best ever listeners, but I'm going to ask it to you first. Where is it within Indianapolis, given that you are an expert on that market, where is it that you're seeing rent growth the highest and the lowest? Is there any part of the multifamily market where you're seeing acutely high or low rent growth compared to the market overall?
Justin Goodin:
Absolutely. North side of Indianapolis, MSA is going to be the highest, uh, rent growth area of the city that goes into like Hamilton County and Hamilton County is the fastest growing area of all of the state of Indiana. So number one, I would definitely say the north side, west side of Indianapolis and even sort of like out in the suburbs of the west side, like Indianapolis, MSA is probably the second most highest. The east side of Indianapolis is going to be the lowest. It's always been the lower end of the city and probably achieving the lowest rent growth.
Slocomb Reed:
That makes sense. My answer for Cincinnati is very different. It's not geographic. One of the things that we've seen in the past few years is that we saw two bedroom and other multi-bedroom rents absolutely take off during COVID and outpace one bedroom rent growth. And right now Q4, 2023, the trend that I'm seeing is that one bedroom rent growth is catching up in those same locations or in high demand locations.
Cincinnati doesn't work quite as geographically as most markets when it comes to demand, appreciation and rent growth, but in the places where we saw two bedroom rents take off, we are now seeing one bedroom rents catch up and the delta between one bedroom and two bedroom rents close. I'm not entirely sure why. In part, it may be that the inflation crunch that we are all of a sudden feeling, even though it's been happening for a while, we as end consumers, it may be the case that people are deciding to step down from a two bedroom to a one bedroom within those tenant basis.
So there's greater demand for the more affordable apartment, which of course makes it less affordable. But I'm seeing surprising rent growth right now in the one bedroom apartments that have not been as appealing. In past phases of this market cycle. Are you seeing anything like that in Indy?
Justin Goodin:
Yeah, I would say two bedrooms are definitely growing at a pretty decent rate. And it's substantially above the one bedrooms, at least like in the properties that we have. So it's probably like a little bit less of a Delta. One bedrooms are in high demand in Annapolis. Studios are in very high demand. We have studios at a few different properties we have. And the studios are always full, always in demand. They never stay vacant for very long.
Are you seeing that over there where you invest?
Slocomb Reed:
We are. I don't have all that many studios and I only have studios in A locations. So I can't really speak to B or C locations when it comes to studios. That said, the concern with studios is always turnover rate. You're saying they don't stay empty for long, but how often are they emptying out?
Justin Goodin:
They empty out quicker than usual. That's probably a good point. Yeah. They never stay vacant for long. And they've always been just high demand for us. We're getting close to $800 on some of the studio units we have.
Slocomb Reed:
I think Indy is a little bit more affordable than Cincinnati, but we're seeing something similar. HUD, Section 8 rent reasonableness right now for rent plus utilities in a studio apartment is $860 something. And then there are other subsidy programs that use another metric that's putting it at $810 for studios that makes sense of course in a lot of a locations the market rent is going to be higher than that this is anecdotal because is that within my personal portfolio and a lot of studio apartments is an interesting data point though for some of our listeners until earlier this year including technically today october thirty first all of my studio apartments had been rented to airbnb arbitrage.
I was at a phase in business where a few years ago I was there being them myself with staff handling the vast majority of the day-to-day operations. And then I had some staffing changes and the growth trajectory of my business was in the long-term space building out that portfolio as opposed to continuing to operate short-term rentals. So I went ahead and rented all of them to arbitrageurs who in some cases took my furnishings and my photos and just ran with it and paid me rent. In 2023, all of those arbitrageurs, and it's not a lot of them, but they've all terminated their leases to get out of Airbnb arbitrage. And when they've left, I've been able to raise rent considerably from what they started paying me a couple of years ago to what I can get for a long term tenant.
Now, again, it's a high demand location and it's curious to think about that. I hadn't really thought about that in light of this conversation, but it makes sense. Why is it in Indianapolis that you think that's happening, especially with your studios, that they're in such high demand and that the rents continue to increase?
Justin Goodin:
Yeah, at least like for these properties, these are the C-class properties that we have in our portfolio. These are all located in B areas of town, fantastic locations.
It's probably just more appealing to people that work long hours, people that don't have a family, single people that just need affordable and yet small place to live. So at least like the ones that I'm thinking about in my head, these are all well located near a lot of jobs in busy locations. So I can see, I'd be like really appealing to regular working class type people. Y'all owner operate as well, right? You are the management.
Justin Goodin:
Everything is third party managed.
Slocomb Reed:
Everything is third party. In my case, I'm the property manager as well. And I do some third party management. And I was going to say when it comes to higher turnover rates with things like studios, the effectiveness of your operations is that it's always the number one factor to profitability, but especially in apartments that are inherently going to turn over much more. And I think it bears repeating here. This is something that I hope the best ever listeners have heard many times already.
But if you look generationally, or if you look across decades, you know that the way we entertain ourselves has moved from stuff to screens. And screens take up a lot less space. In most cases, they fit in our pocket or in our bag. So we require fewer square feet for everyday living than we have in the past. I say that having a four-year-old and a one-year-old and having a lot of stuff. Generally speaking, studio apartments make more sense now than they did when your C-class units were being built.
Justin Goodin:
That's a great point.
Slocomb Reed:
Last question before we transition the episode. The ground up construction that you're doing right now, how many units is it and what is the unit mix? Are you building studios right now?
Justin Goodin:
No, we are not. It'll be 76 units, 33 of those will be two bedrooms, the rest will be one bedroom, one bath, and it also have 25,000 square feet of commercial space. So it'll be a mixture of offices. We have some office suites that'll probably be restaurants or some other tenants like that.
Slocomb Reed:
Nice, actual last question. Given your track record, your history of amenitizing value at apartments to increase revenue, which amenities did you prioritize when planning this property? Did you go ahead and put in carports to charge additional rent for them or anything like that?
Justin Goodin:
Great question. We actually don't have carports at this location. We are going to have a rooftop patio where it'll have a fire pit grill area, game seating, so that'll be on the fourth floor of the main building. Really nice luxury rooftop patio area. There'll be a work from home suite. There'll be a cafe and common area. There's going to be a luxury green space Plaza area in the front. So, really nice minis like that fitness center mailroom one of the really nice stuff.
Slocomb Reed:
That sounds awesome. Are you ready for the best ever lightning round?
Justin Goodin:
Yes.
Slocomb Reed:
What is the best ever book you recently read?
Justin Goodin:
Recently read a book called a million dollar offers, so that was probably the most recent book.
Slocomb Reed:
what is your best ever way to give back?
Justin Goodin:
In the past i've done some volunteering. I used to be a mentor for the big brother. I volunteered at a food pantry place and I've even volunteered at a hospice in the past.
Slocomb Reed:
Nice. Just on the deals that you have done, the properties you have acquired, what is the biggest mistake you've made and the best ever lesson that resulted from it?
Justin Goodin:
For the deals that I've acquired so far, I would say the biggest mistake is not finding the right contractors. So fortunately, all of our deals are performing really well, renovations are going well and up to plan. But there have been some cases where we haven't received multiple bids or multiple quotes on a job and sometimes we've chose the lowest price point quotes from a contractor. So my best advice is to not always go with the cheapest price, but go with somebody that comes recommended, that has good reviews, that can provide references.
Just because they're providing the cheapest price doesn't mean they're going to do the best job. So, in my opinion, I would always pay more for quality and better quality work. So that's something I've learned doing these value add strategies.
Slocomb Reed:
Can you give us the example from your own portfolio?
Justin Goodin:
Yes. So the example that comes to my head is a parking lot that we paid and we had several bids that came back around $90,000, $100,000. The third quote that we received came back at $68,000. But while this was the cheapest quote, it just wasn't the best quality of work. We had to have them come back and fix many spots, redo a few spots, redo the lines for the parking lot. All in all, the job got done and it's acceptable, but we went with them because they were the lowest price out of all the bids we received. So, if I could go back, I would have went with somebody more experienced, had better reviews, and I would have picked a price that fit within our budget, but somebody that I have a lot more confidence in, I guess.
Slocomb Reed:
Justin and I have made literally the exact same mistake. The numbers were different, but everything else was the same. Having to call him back because all of a sudden your drains are full of blacktop because they allowed some of the blacktop while it was still liquid to just pour straight into the drains and now they've got to drill it all out because your parking lot is a lake. Yes, I've been there too. Yeah, sometimes even for us boring Midwesterners, saving money does not feel good when you have to deal with that kind of issue. On that note, Justin, what is your best ever advice?
Justin Goodin:
My best ever advice would be to create a thought leadership platform, whether that's a podcast like this, a local meetup or posting on LinkedIn or a blog. Do something to get your name out there, get your brand out there, and tell people what you're doing, what you're working on, and you'll be amazed by the kind of people and opportunities that come to you, just by being active on social media, by providing value to others. But that's one thing that's really helped me in my business, is just being active on social media, having multiple thought leadership platforms, and the amount of people and opportunities I've had to me is just being awesome.
Slocomb Reed:
Last question, where can people reach out to you?
Justin Goodin:
Yes, if you want to go to nextlevelequity.com for anybody interested in checking out our future opportunities, we have a seven-day passive real estate 101 email course that's right there on our homepage. So anybody looking to get in touch with us can go to nextlevelequity.com and check out some of our resources there.
Slocomb Reed:
That link is in the show notes. Justin, thank you. Best ever listeners, thank you as well for tuning in. If you've gained value from this episode, please do subscribe to our show. Leave us a five star review and share this episode with a friend you know you can value to through our conversation today. Thank you and have a best ever day.
Narrator:
Hi, best ever listeners. Joe Fairless is here again. And one last thing before you go, would you like to receive a short weekly email with proven tips from experienced investors, free tools and resources, and a roundup of the week's most relevant news and best ever content? Well, if so, join the community of nearly 15,000 commercial real estate, passive and active investors who receive the best ever newsletter. Just go to bestevercre.com forward slash access and you'll get the very next one. I hope you enjoyed this episode. And as always, thank you for listening and have a best ever day.
