Each week for the Best Ever Round Table, the three Best Ever Show hosts — Ash Patel, Slocomb Reed, and Travis Watts — come together for a deep dive into a commercial real estate investing topic.
In this episode, Ash, Slocomb, and Travis each explain their own personal real estate strategies, making their case for why investors should consider their approach while also explaining which types of investors might not benefit from using it.
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TRANSCRIPT
Travis Watts: Welcome back, Best Ever listeners, to another Round Table episode. I'm your host, Travis Watts, joined by Slocomb Reed and Ash Patel. Every week, the hosts of the Best Ever podcast get together. We talk about various real estate topics, and I'm really excited to dig into today's topic, where we're going to be exploring our own individual real estate strategies that we all personally use.
The great thing about these and the reason we do them is Slocomb, Ash and I have all found success in using different strategies, all within the real estate space. Not every strategy is right for everybody, so this one's called Making the Case. So we're going to make the case for our particular strategies, but we're also going to share why the strategy may not be the right fit for some investors. So - excited to get started with that.
Ash, I'm going to start with you, if you wouldn't mind giving a brief background about yourself, what you do, and then dive into your particular strategy. And let's start by making the bull case for your strategy, why someone might consider what it is you do in real estate.
Ash Patel: Travis, thank you. Best Ever listeners, welcome. I've been a non-residential commercial investor for over 10 years. I do every asset class, from retail, warehouse, industrial, medical, land, flex space, mixed use, restaurants, so basically anything beyond multifamily. And the strong case for why somebody should invest in those asset classes is there's no ceiling to upside of returns. What I mean by that is with multifamily, you are bound by rent comps. If your Class A competitor to your Class B multifamily property is charging $1,000 a month in rent, you cannot charge that or beyond. With retail industrial office, it's more of a supply and demand case. So if somebody is willing to sign a lease for your space, you then can increase your NOI by whatever that amount is, and there's no ceiling. You can have a mom-and-pop deli in a building and maybe they're paying $6 a square foot, and all of a sudden, if Chipotle wants to come into that space, they're paying $12 a square foot, but the cap rate is down to 6%, you've now tripled or quadrupled the value of your property, which you just can't do in a lot of other asset classes.
Travis Watts: That's a very cool take, Ash. I've never really thought about it as a capped perspective in that way, so excited. Slocomb, do you have any thoughts before we move on from that topic?
Slocomb Reed: I've heard Ash talk a lot about the increased cash flow potential and the appreciation potential of non-residential commercial investing. I'll end up talking about what I do here in a moment, I believe. My biggest question for Ash - there's a lot less commonality in your tenant base, and it seems to me as an outsider to what you do, who's focused on apartments, that the process of finding tenants for your spaces seems a lot more involved, and not nearly as streamlined as what I do, which I'll get into in a moment. When you have a vacancy, how much of your time is involved in finding those great tenants, those Chipotles?
Ash Patel: That's a great question. A lot of these rental apps will put out advertising. They'll put out applications for apartments, and you have a steady stream of applicants. With commercial real estate that's not the case. You can't just put out an application, put out an ad. You've got to get out there and market. You've got to canvas, potentially hire brokers for that and work alongside with them. So it's a tremendous amount of work.
You have to know what the challenges are going into that property. So if you're in a rural area with a 50% vacant strip center, you know it's going to be a challenge because everybody in town already knows about that vacancy and there's no competition, and it's still not able to get filled - that's a problem. However, if you have a strip center with just a couple vacancies and everything around you is fully occupied, you know it could be just mismanagement.
So one, you want to gauge how difficult it is to fill vacancies or keep your space occupied before purchase. And then once you do have a vacancy, it is a tremendous amount of work. So it's a great point, and it's a great risk as well.
Travis Watts: Yeah, couldn't agree more. What was coming to mind as you were just talking, Ash - when we lived in Denver, I remember there was this little strip center and this ice cream shop came in and their creative spin on, it was alcoholic ice cream, so they would mix in alcohol like fireball or something into their cinnamon. And it was booming right off the bat and there was lines out the door. It was insane. It was a trendy area of Denver. And I think it was about nine months later, they were out and they went under. They couldn't make ends meet. So to Slocomb's point, I guess, a lot of folks are just needing, quite frankly, two bed, two bath, a roof over their head, just a place to live affordably, but it could be a challenge. Would you say it's higher risk, higher reward when it comes to multifamily?
Ash Patel: 100%. Another good example of that, Travis, is those escape rooms.
Travis Watts: Yeah.
Ash Patel: I think everyone does an escape room once, but it's a one-and-done.
Travis Watts: [laughs] Yeah.
Ash Patel: No one says, "Hey, what are you guys doing Friday? Oh, let's go back to that escape room", right?
Travis Watts: Right.
Ash Patel: So there's a lot of fads that come and go in retail, and the risk is certainly higher, but again, not only are you not limited on the upside to sale price, but you can also compress cap rates. So with multifamily, the cap rate is set by geographic location for the most part; geographic location and class of property. With commercial properties, the cap rate is dictated by the quality of the tenant. So a mom-and-pop tenant is going to be a nine cap, a national tenant could be a six cap.
Travis Watts: That makes sense. So don't fill it up with axe throwing and escape rooms. Gotcha. [laughs]
Ash Patel: And know that if you do, you may have to have a tenant on deck.
Travis Watts: Absolutely. Alright, Slocomb, let's get into you, your background, your strategy, and why folks should consider what it is you do as a strategy for themselves.
Slocomb Reed: Absolutely. So hi, my name is Slocomb. I am an apartment owner-operator, active investor in Cincinnati, Ohio. I self-manage my portfolio, which now includes an office building where office rooms or suites are rented out individually. I started as a full-time professional youth minister who needed a side hustle and finally read Rich Dad Poor Dad. I didn't know it was called house-hacking at the time, but I was not a homeowner yet, so buying and owner-occupying a four-family. Thinking about that like a part-time job was going to pay better in the short run and the long run than any sort of part-time job I was qualified for.
The story here, especially in this conversation with the two of you and how we compare our strategies - my active investing is more time-intensive and less capital-intensive. I can get more into that in a moment. But being an active investor is a good opportunity to convert your time into cash flow and equity. I have to develop a lot more expertise than passive investors, because the buck stops with me on the success of my portfolio. I know for Ash it's kind of a hybrid in those two, and certainly, I'm not going to say that he's not active or involved. There are lots of things in commercial that you have to be more knowledgeable about than you do when you are focused effectively on one asset class, on apartments.
People who are looking for a change of career or looking for a way to convert time into money can find a lot of success in active real estate investing. The most common way people do that right now is getting into wholesaling. That's not what I do. I have wholesold deals before, instead of just choosing to buy them myself. But one of the biggest reason for my success thus far, outside of doing a good job managing my portfolio, has my efforts and success in finding deals off market. So being active, being involved, being the one who's getting on the phone with sellers, beating pavement, meeting them at properties, doing the digging in the analysis, attending the inspections, having the conversations, doing the negotiating has put me in a position where I've been able to get better cash flow and lower prices than people are getting on market, the people who are not as active, the people who are not treating this like a career, full-time, like I am.
And I will say, if you're investing particularly by comparison to apartment syndication or commercial real estate syndication on a passive level, if you're more focused on cash flow than increases in equity, this is a good way to go. If you're doing BRRRR investing, as I have, there are opportunities to increase your equity or sell for a large profit. Really, the focus ought to be, for people like me, cash flow, and any sort of appreciation that comes forced or naturally really ought to only be considered for redeployment for increased cash flow.
Travis Watts: Love it. I've got a quick question for you , Slocomb. So I generally find that those who are active in the space that you're in - they're either one of two groups, and usually not both. They enjoy the process of finding the properties, as you mentioned, being more of an asset manager, running the due diligence, being creative and seeing an opportunity a lot of other people maybe can't see or aren't willing to take on, or they have a true passion as being a handyman. They like to fix up homes. They like to work on houses. They're usually kind of a do-it-yourselfer. Which category do you fall into?
Slocomb Reed: Of those two, definitely the first. I'm not nearly as handy as I look. I'm good for demo. I'm big and strong and I can break things and haul things, but that's about it. If it has to look good when I'm done, don't ask me. That was the first thing that I hired out, fixing toilets and framing walls. And I do enjoy finding the deal, getting it under contract, closing, executing on a business plan. I also find myself enjoying the operation of a property management company, and the more people than building aspects of property management after the deal's been acquired, and whatever value outer force appreciation play has completed; much more of a people person than a handy person.
Travis Watts: Ash, I feel like you've got a lot of parallels there to Slocomb, in some regard. Any thoughts on his active strategy with multifamily?
Ash Patel: Yeah. I want to go back to what Slocomb said about, "Relative to Ash, I self-manage." Out of curiosity, what is it that you think I do? And we haven't had conversations where we talked about this, so I'm really curious.
Slocomb Reed: The main point of comparison that I would make - and not necessarily individually between the two of us, but between being an active apartment investor who self-manages and being an active, non-residential commercial investor who self-manages, what I need to do in order to raise capital, find deals, close on deals, execute on a business plan, it seems to me that it's a lot more streamlined.
Ash Patel: So when you say you self-manage, all of your leasing, all of that is done by you?
Slocomb Reed: At present, it's all done in-house. It was done by me until I grew to the point that I could hire other people to do it.
Ash Patel: Got it. So I'm in a similar boat, where I self-manage all of my properties. I interact with every tenant. Every tenant has my cell phone number, my email address. I'm for the most part the one who finds tenants, except for certain situations where I know a broker is better suited with their Rolodex. So I'm the one that also finds deals. I've got additional people that I'll joint venture with if they find a deal and want to get in on it. So I think really similar to you, I'm the boots on the ground and I'm the one dealing with investors, communications, brokers, tenants, dispositions, acquisitions, all of it. So for the better part of 10 years, I made the mistake of staying a one-man shop. And it wasn't until about a year ago that I realized having a team on your side is way more beneficial.
Slocomb Reed: I'm very fortunate, Ash, in that there are some things I really suck at, which means I have to delegate, and I learned that I had to delegate pretty quickly on some things. And then, as my time became more valuable and more profitable, I have had, and still need to find ways to delegate more less dollar-productive tasks. So for example, I have someone who's effectively a showing agent for me. His work is very scripted. He literally has a sheet that he goes through with every apartment showing; a lot of what I do is very streamlined.
Another point of comparison, I've heard this said at meetups before, people who play in both your space and mine, Ash... For a point of comparison, I have an asset worth about one and a half million dollars. It's technically commercial real estate because of the size, but my one and a half million dollar asset has 25 streams of income in the form of 24 apartments and coin laundry. So what it would take for me to experience serious vacancy is much larger. And when I do experience a vacancy out of those 24 apartments, what I need to do to get that apartment rent-ready is pretty simple. The market analysis is pretty simple. Just make sure it gets on Zillow and apartments.com. And showing that apartment is very similar to showing all other apartments. It's just some numbers, like rent amount, security deposit, pet fees that are different.
Ash Patel: Yeah. So--
Slocomb Reed: Ash, you look eager to comment on that.
[laughter]
Ash Patel: I cringe when you tell me that you have 25 sources of income, because in my mind, I'm thinking, "Man, you've got 25 potential sources of phone calls in the middle of the night, or problems, or plumbing leaks", right? Whereas with a lot of commercial, any of those problems would fall on the tenant. And with triple nets, even roof parking lot repairs - it's all on the tenant. So the way I look at it is a lot more management overhead. But you're right, in terms of risk, yours is much lower than what mine is.
We're going to get into these questions in just a minute, but another benefit and also a detriment is that we have long-term leases. So right now I read all of these apartment investors are able to raise rents, in some cases 12%, 15% year over year. We can't do that, because we have long-term leases. So for the first time ever, we're looking for buildings whose leases expire soon. In the past, we were always looking for - if it's a 10-year lease, we want seven or eight years left, so we have that guaranteed stream of income, no matter what happens to the economy.
So again, a lot of silver linings here. If the economy collapses, your tenant is still paying for eight, nine years, but we can't raise rents. However, now in this inflationary period, we're looking for tenants who've been paying a very low rent for the last 10 years, and their lease is coming due in the next two or three years, so we can buy it and bring them closer to market rents.
Slocomb Reed: One more thing I'd like to say, Travis, before you transition us--
Travis Watts: Sure.
Slocomb Reed: ...an anecdote from my grandfather that he told me when I was in college, he said that the worst business in the world is owning two McDonald's, because you can't afford a general manager until you own three McDonald's, meaning you have to do everything yourself to run the show in two different locations. So that's definitely how scaling an apartment portfolio feels. To Ash's point, 25 toilets is a really tough place to be, because you can't afford to put someone on staff to fix 25 toilets. You need to rely on a handyman. And we're recording this in late June of 2022 - finding a reliable à la carte handyman who's just going to come fix your things only when you ask him to has been more difficult during COVID than any time before COVID. However, just like with McDonald's, when you scale to the point of having an apartment portfolio comparable to three or four McDonald's, you have the capacity to put on staff the people who answer the phone when there's a toilet issue, and the people who fix the toilet issue when it comes up. I haven't taken those calls personally in quite a while, and it's been several years since I've fixed the toilet myself.
Break: [00:19:37] to [00:21:24]
Travis Watts: Nice. I appreciate you guys sharing. Ash, I wanted a comment, but I wanted Slocomb to finish his point there. But triple net - so in our neighborhood, we're just outside of Disney world, and Disney bought up all this land at one point and they built themselves some corporate offices in our neighborhood and they developed them all themselves and then they sold them off, and then they agreed to do triple net leases and rent them back, basically, for long-term. And right now, they are going through some really hefty construction. They got cranes and genie lifts and forklifts going everywhere, and I thought, "Man, that is a beautiful thing when you have a triple net renter."
But to your point of when you were saying you can't raise rents in multifamily - I've seen a lot of these multifamily syndications turn over in about three years, a lot of them, at least in the past decade. And it can be nice to find a property $300 under market rents, be able to lift those quickly, renovate, turn it around, offload it and put your capital elsewhere. So that's why we're having the conversation, right? Pros and cons. And maybe the answer is a hybrid mix of all of this, for anybody listening. So just a couple thoughts on that.
So I invest in multifamily apartments syndications as a limited partner. I see myself really, at the end of the day, as just a full-time passive investor, so I don't just invest in that asset class, but for sake of this conversation, that's what we'll roll with. So more specifically, 200 to 600 units in size, Class B properties, Sunbelt markets, with value-add business plans. Everything I invest in is going to be already stabilized, occupied, cash-flowing right out of the gate. It's going to have monthly distributions. That's about 90% of what I do. Sometimes it is quarterly.
So typically, the investors who are doing what I do, as far as making the case for this, they're looking for a truly hands-off passive investment. They are completely busy and occupied doing other things with their life. They might be a medical professional, an attorney, a pro athlete, something where their time is better spent elsewhere. Their passion is not usually real estate. And if it is, they're usually hands-on and active, to Slocomb's point earlier. So they're just looking for monthly cash flow, perhaps more cash flow than what you find in traditional fixed income investments these days. They're looking for diversification away from the stock market. Maybe they're looking for more stable and predictable outcomes compared to the publicly traded markets and REITS and stuff like that.
And I would argue that generally, and this just comes from my investor relations background for years, talking with thousands of investors, I would say, generally, the LP investor, the limited partner is looking to match the overall performance of real estate in the marketplace, not necessarily beat the overall averages. So you might think of this in parallel to a stock investor, as someone who just simply would choose a low-cost index fund as compared to hand picking stocks and running all the analysis and due diligence on choosing which companies they think might outperform. So that's my bold case for it, I guess. That's who I see mostly invest in this asset class. Slocomb, any thoughts on the strategy or anything to add?
Slocomb Reed: You know, I think this may be tackling your next question in advance, Travis, but the major point of comparison between your side of apartment investing and mine is that yours is much more capital-intensive. As an LP, you're not the one who's finding deals that you can bring capital to, the way that I am. The other piece of it is that it's not nearly as time-intensive for you to be involved in these deals and get a return as it is for someone like me. This is why I talk about being a full-time professional youth minister when I got into real estate. I do not have the credentials to earn a high income in any industry other than real estate, and really self-employed real estate investing. So I need a more time-intensive expertise, intensive approach to earning an income and building wealth for my family in real estate. I don't have the ability to generate a high income or build wealth outside of this. I'm not a high-income individual looking for an opportunity to decrease my tax burden or generate income outside of my own efforts, the way that is available to people doing the investing that you do, Travis.
Travis Watts: That's a great point, and something I probably should have mentioned too, as to who these investors typically are. They're typically accredited investors, so high net worth, high-income individuals. Those listening, I'm sure you've heard that term at one point or another. So million-dollar net worth, single or married, or 200k to 300k in income for the last couple years, depending on your married or single status, and still back to the point, medical professionals and attorneys and pro athletes, usually high income individuals, that way. Ash, any thoughts on the strategy? I know you've done some of this yourself. Anything you want to share?
Ash Patel: Yeah, I want to go back to finding deals off market that are well below market rents.
Travis Watts: Okay.
Ash Patel: Now, with multifamily, it's very easy. Everybody in that space knows what market rents are. So if you can find an off-market deal, you'll know immediately if it's below market. With commercial, there is so many more opportunities to do that. For example, we're looking at a building with three cell towers on the roof of the building, and the owner doesn't know that he's potentially sitting on $2 million if he wants to sell those contracts. So talk about buying something below market. There could be a variation of lease rates where some of them are above market, some of them are below, but the aggregate is well below market rents. And it varies by space. So if it's industrial, market rents are different. Retail, office, they're all different, Class A retail, Cass, B retail. If it's long and narrow, it's harder to lease. Rents have to be a little bit lower. If it's near a signalized intersection, it's easier to lease. Rents can be higher. So there's so many different variables where it's easier to find deals that are below market rates in our industry.
Travis Watts: Gotcha. To that point, that's a great parallel and pivot for the conversation. Let's play the devil's advocate now. So can you talk more about why someone may not want to do what it is you do, or any additional cons that we haven't covered in the commercial space?
Ash Patel: Yeah. And again, this goes back to the risk and the amount of cash reserves you would have to have, or access to liquidity. When you have an economic downturn, and let's say you have a number of leases coming due, your tenants can ask for a reduction in rent, or they can just vacate, and now you're left with a center that could be half vacant or more. You have to make sure you can meet your debt obligations, both to your lender and/or investors. So having cash reserves is key. It's not like if you had a minor hiccup with multifamily; you can still make it up. With this, it could be years worth of pain, and you've got to make sure that you're able to hang onto the property or dispose of it without taking a huge hit to your balance sheet or essentially your project plan. So yeah--
Travis Watts: Makes sense, yeah.
Ash Patel: I mean, just the financial risk. Like you said earlier, the returns are there and the exponential returns are there as well, but the exponential risk is, of course, inversely there.
Travis Watts: Sure. Well, everybody listening, there's risk in anything that you do virtually. There's risk in holding more than 250k in cash in the bank, right? It's not federally insured or backed if there's a run on the bank. So there's going to be risk out there. So the way I look at it - I'll just tackle this real quick from a bullet point standpoint on syndications and then, Slocomb, I'll turn it over to you to kind of bring it home with the cons of your strategy.
I would say anyone who's very risk-adverse probably wouldn't want to be an LP in a syndication. I'm not suggesting that it's a very high-risk asset by any means, but if you're looking for more of the traditional guaranteed returns like the life insurance policies or an annuity or a CD in the bank or a high-yield savings account or something, this wouldn't be appropriate for you. It's also a bit age-dependent too, because these are illiquid investments, so once your money goes in, you may not be able to access it for a period of years. So if you're 95 years old and looking for someone to inherit your estate, it may not be something you want to tie capital up into, because of the complexity of getting it out and understanding the risks and transferring title, that kind of stuff.
Additionally, on the flip side of that, I would say if you're a person who is looking for a higher level of risk for a potential higher reward, then this may not be the play for you either, to Ash's point. If you're looking for 30% plus annualized returns, I think there was definitely a time, as an LP, where that was happening, but that's not in 2022. So I would say, be more of a realist today with cash on cash between 5% and 10% annualized and IRRs 13% to 18% maybe. Definitely, they've come down over the years, so we have to adapt. Just like with anything. There was a time where we could all put our money in the bank and get a 10% annualized return in the 1980s. We don't live in that world today, so we have to adjust for the current economy.
And then, as always, as a final con or something to think about, if real estate is not something that you even understand as an asset class, you've never done any kind of research, you've never read a book on it, you've never had rental properties, you've never owned real estate, it may not be something to put your money into, because your risk is always going to be higher if you don't understand what it is you're investing in. So those would be my cons as being in LP in this space. Slocomb, I'll turn it over to you to kind of wrap it up here, cons on being an active multifamily investor.
Slocomb Reed: Thank you, Travis. The two things that come to mind, first is that it's very time intensive, at least the way that I invest. It is not an opportunity to deploy capital and check in on it once a month or once a quarter. The other is scaling with as intense as apartment property management can be. You don't really feel it with your first 10 doors because there just aren't that many things that come up with 10 doors. But depending on where you are from 10 to 50, or even more than 50, you fall into that realm of space where you have to develop some serious skills and you have to develop the ability to find scalable ways to delegate - scalable, meaning that it can start small and grow.
It's a tricky spot to be in when you're scaling an apartment portfolio and you're in that spot where you still have the responsibility to do some things yourself and you get caught between showing apartments, replacing a faucet and finding your next deal that's actually going to generate way more cash flow and equity for you than the toilet and the apartment showing. But if you don't fix that faucet or that toilet or show that apartment, you lose the momentum that you need to have solid cash flow. So it's time intensive and scaling from one McDonald's to three McDonald's in apartment portfolio size.
Travis Watts: Great advice, Ash, any final thoughts for Best Ever listeners, just to wrap up here?
Ash Patel: Yes. Best Ever listeners, the goal for this round table is really to add as much value as we can today. And Travis, excellent topic, excellent job hosting this today. And I'm glad you all agreed with me that non-residential commercial real estate is way better than multifamily. [laughs]
Slocomb Reed: Why do I feel like there should be poker chips and cards in this Zoom Meeting with us right now?
Travis Watts: [laughs]
Ash Patel: I don't know what you're talking about.
Travis Watts: That's funny. That's funny. Slocomb, any final thoughts?
Slocomb Reed: Specifically that being an active apartment investor, there are great returns. It often feels like you need to get to the end of the rainbow in order to find them as you're building a portfolio the way that I have. The pot of gold at the end of the rainbow is real though. It does exist. Keep pushing, keep finding those ways to delegate the less dollar productive tasks as you grow. And the opportunities to partner with others, to scale your portfolio through finding larger deals, raising capital, delegating more day-to-day tasks, they're coming.
Travis Watts: Love it. My advice is the same as always. You do you. Everybody is different. I wasn't very good or competitive at active real estate. I never took the time to study commercial, non-residential. So my story was just unique in that. And I did work, at one point, 100 hours a week, and I was a very frugal saver and that allowed me to have some capital to become an LP in addition to fixing and flipping homes and doing other things. So you got to look at your own circumstances, figure out what works for you.
I'd say 2022 is the year of learning. We've had a long and strong bull run in real estate overall. The last 10 years have been pretty incredible. Here we are, maybe potentially going into recession. We don't know. It's not a time to speculate and gamble. I think it's a time, if you haven't gotten started yet, to study up and hopefully we see some lucrative opportunities continue on in the space. So as Warren Buffet always says, rule number one with investing, don't lose money. So we've seen a lot of people losing money by speculating and alternative assets and crypto and stocks and things. So don't be that person.
But I appreciate you guys tuning in. Thank you, Ash. Thank you, Slocomb. Great topics. Appreciate it as always. Best Ever listeners have a best ever week and we'll see you next week on the next Round Table.
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