Jonathan Tuttle has been in the mobile home park space since 2007. He served as a mobile home broker for 10 years and now serves as a fund manager at Midwest Park Capital, a private real estate investment firm focused on the mobile home park vertical. In this episode, Jonathan shares how the mobile home park space has changed over the last few years, what he sees in store for the future, and why despite everything, he still views mobile home parks as an undervalued asset class.
Changes in the MHP Space
Major hedge funds and Wall Street players have entered the mobile home park space over the last few years, buying up parks and compressing cap rates, Jonathan explains. Additionally, it’s become difficult to add mobile home park inventory to develop new parks now based on legislation, local governance, and tax issues, creating a situation where so much inventory has been transacted recently by organizations with defined hold periods of 10+ years that it could be quite a while before many parks are back on the market.
Jonathan’s Next Move
While Jonathan is receiving absurdly high offers on his properties based on the state of the space, he’s holding his ground because he believes the value will continue to increase over the next few years. He is projecting rent growth and increasing appreciating values for mobile home parks moving forward.
Why Mobile Home Parks Are Still Undervalued
Jonathan points to supply and demand economics to explain why, despite everything, mobile home parks are still undervalued as an asset class. He says there are 10,000 baby boomers retiring each day, and when the major expected increase in the senior population hits within the next 10 years, more baby boomers will be selling off their assets and moving into mobile home parks, where senior citizens already make up 50% of the clientele. “These major trends and major indicators all benefit mobile home parks,” Jonathan says. “That’s why it’s so unique and so valuable.”
Jonathan Tuttle | Real Estate Background
- Fund manager at Midwest Park Capital, which is a private real estate investment firm focused on the mobile home park vertical.
- Portfolio: GP of 95 units across two mobile home parks
- Based in: Chicago, IL
- Say hi to him at:
- Best Ever Book: The Founders: The Story of Paypal and the Entrepreneurs Who Shaped Silicon Valley by Jimmy Soni
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TRANSCRIPT
Slocomb Reed: Best Ever listeners, welcome to the Best Real Estate Investing Advice Ever Show. I'm Slocomb Reed and I'm here with Jonathan Tuttle. Jonathan is joining us from Chicago, Illinois. He is a mobile home investor and fund manager at Midwest Park Capital, which is also focused on mobile home parks; personally owns two mobile home parks totaling 95 units. Jonathan, can you start us off a little more about your background and what you're currently focused on?
Jonathan Tuttle: Sure. Yeah, thanks for having me on. I'm excited to be here.
Slocomb Reed: Absolutely.
Jonathan Tuttle: Background - I’ve been in the space since 2007, so like the early days back when nobody really knew what it was, and people would kind of laugh when I mentioned mobile home parks. So I've seen the transition to now, when there's obviously with Fannie-Freddie financing available and the Internet changed everything so people are aware of its benefits. Been in the business since then, and I was a mobile home broker for the last 10 years. I was the president of the Midwest Yale Realty, which is one of the preeminent mobile home brokerages in the United States, and just basically have been in all sides of the business for a long time.
Slocomb Reed: I've got to stop you there, because I'm the newest of the Best Ever Podcast hosts. I've been in real estate investing since 2013, and this is the first time I've ever heard of a mobile home broker. It's so niche - especially 10 years ago when you started brokering deals, just coming out of the Great Recession. Talk to us about that, Jonathan. Mobile home brokering - not only have I never heard of that, but all the stories I hear about mobile home parks are about finding the mom-and-pop owner off-market. How big is the space for brokered mobile home park deals?
Jonathan Tuttle: Well, like you said, it's supply and demand working to your favor. It really is a handful of brokers, I'm friends with all the top guys. That’s a good thing - if you’re a residential broker in a normal city, a normal state, there are 20,000 people doing it. The mobile home park side - there's only a handful of people and everyone kind of has their niche or their region. The only other downside for the park side though, is there are only 43,000 change parks, a dwindling supply. There’s not a ton of supply, but there are enough deals out there for people to do actually really, really well. Especially in the last five years, it has exploded, because with the Fannie-Freddie financing coming in and all the institutional buyers coming in, cap rates compress, the deals, and the size of deals these guys are giving - it's almost like I wish I stopped brokering some of them, because it's insane, some of the commissions they are making.
Slocomb Reed: When did you decide to get out of brokering?
Jonathan Tuttle: 2017, because I wanted to focus on the acquisition side.
Slocomb Reed: So you transitioned from brokering deals to your own personal acquisitions in 2017?
Jonathan Tuttle: Yeah, so more acquisitions. I like the tax benefits, I like the safety and security. One downside that I had mentioned - like, 43,000 parks, a lot of these guys are going to have a five-year run and it's going to dwindle down the inventory. A lot of these have new owners taking over. These parks aren't going to trade hands for 10 to 15 years. So the deal flow right now is good, but it's going to be dwindling and dwindling. I just saw that coming, that I want to actually build net worth and get the tax benefits and actually have the cash flow coming in.
Slocomb Reed: Jonathan, give us some more of the numbers around that. You're particularly well-positioned to give insights on the mobile home park market as a whole, given your professional experience. You just said that you think inventory is solid right now, but you think inventory, when it comes to properties for sale, is going to dry up here soon, because the vast majority of deals that are going to be sold have been purchased and there’s going to be a hold period while people execute on their business plans. Can you flesh that out a little bit for us?
Jonathan Tuttle: Yeah. Basically, people are new to the niche. We have such a unique model with a lot of the cities. Most of the parts are grandfathered-in, so they have these old laws from back in the day, actually voting laws, and they're basically gray areas ways to keep the park. A lot of the new developments may be 10 to 15 units a year, and then you're basically developing a subdivision, plus you have a six-month backorder and new manufactured housing.
Most people want to buy some of this cash flow from day one, and it has this 30, 40-year history, and just the fact there's just such slow inventory... It basically means all these new Wall Street guys like Blackstone, Apollo, all these guys came into the space last three, four years, and they're buying billions of dollars with the parks. Obviously, they go for $15 million or above portfolios. But the mom-and-pops have seen, because of all these new entrants coming in the space, a normal park though was $2 million a couple of years ago, now it's $4.5 million. They’re like, “Well, why keep it? Let’s cash out.”
These deals - that's what I'm saying, people are getting these offers and they can't refuse, the supply and demand economics working towards the owners’ behalf... But also on the broker side, they know the inventory. A lot of brokers now are actually buying deals too, just because they know, 10 years from now... It's the bigger deals one-off here and there, but it's not going to be like what is right now, basically. Everything has cycles. We're in a peak cycle of sales right now.
Slocomb Reed: Correct me where I'm wrong. I'd like to summarize what you've just said, Jonathan, to make sure that I understand and the Best Ever listeners gain understanding. Because of the way that major hedge funds and Wall Street players have entered the mobile home park space in the last couple or three years, sucking all of the air out of the room and compressing cap rates, so much of the mobile home park inventory has transacted in the last few years.
When you combine that with how difficult it is to add mobile home park inventory to develop new mobile home parks now based on legislation, local governance, tax issues etc, we've hit a point where so much inventory has transacted recently by organizations with defined hold periods of 10+ years that it's just going to be a while before we see this stuff hit the market again.
Let's say this wave of transacting ends, to your point, sometime soon; all of the available parks or the majority of the available mom-and-pop parks, the ones that they thought were worth $2 million and they're getting offers of $4.5 million - those all sell. What happens next to the mobile home park space?
Jonathan Tuttle: Yes, it's happening right now. A lot of my friends have been doing half-billion, $1 billion-plus in sales in a single year. Because people have portfolios, there's just huge sales happening right now. Like I said, the mom-and-pops are selling; we get offers all the time from people who have given us ridiculous offers. It’s almost tempting to sell them. But basically, what's going to happen is people in the MHP space are heading to other asset classes; self-storage, maybe assisted living, parking lots, and apartment buildings... What we’re seeing, the people that already own the parks, if they're doing a raise, or if they have investors, or if they have extra, like they're doing a cash-out refi, they're like, “Well, since the inventory -- I'm going to get bid down, so maybe I should just stick to self-storage instead.” That’s what we're seeing... Or RV parks, I forgot to mention.
There are alternative assets that are right behind mobile home parks; the uniqueness allows these people like, “Hey, there's not many parks. There are 20 people bidding on that park; let's go and just put a bid on this RV park with maybe three to five bids on it.” I don't know exactly how many bids they are getting, but it's not as competitive. We're seeing people transitioning and exploring other asset classes that are comparable, and alternatives.
Slocomb Reed: Absolutely. That's a big part of the narrative right now. With as much money flooding into commercial real estate investing, people who have been in the space for a while, they're looking to diversify the asset classes that they will consider in order to hit the returns that they are accustomed to hitting in apartments, or self-storage or, to your point, mobile home parks. Apartment people moving to self-storage and mobile home parks, and self-storage and mobile home parks moving to RV parks, and other similar niche asset classes.
You also said, Jonathan that you are receiving some of those “absurd offers” for your properties, that seem too high, but you haven't taken them. What that tells me... Please correct me where I'm wrong; if you tell me I'm wrong, that means I'm learning something, too. What I'm hearing you say underlying that is that you believe the value of your parks is going to go up, and that while you may be receiving absurd offers now, the offers you'll be receiving one, two, five years from now would be even higher. Is that what you're projecting?
Jonathan Tuttle: Well, it depends on the financing, because the Fed and Treasury is going to change a lot. Fannie-Freddie changed the game with available finance; that's what compressed these cap rates and got these high offers. Fannie-Freddie didn't come out until about 2015, 2016-ish. Before, it used to be just like how self-storage is - you have to go to the bank, traditional financing, or maybe seller finance. When you got these non-recourse 10 years amortized over 30, people could really pay off the property. What we like is because it's irreplaceable, just because of supply and demand. It's just something that's turnkey, more with the inflation going; they say 8% percent, but most economics people say 12% to 15%.
We also know that there are baby boomers, there are 10,000 retiring every day for the next 10 years. All these different trends only benefit us. We just know it's a turnkey property, and to find another replacement... There are a couple of other asset classes that are very comparable, but for the housing sector, we like the fact that there's always a huge demand and we have the inventory. So maybe not necessarily price go up, we just know it's a turnkey property that's always in demand, we could always exit out when whenever we want. But we also know that anytime a tenant leaves, there are five people ready to go.
Slocomb Reed: Gotcha. You're projecting rent growth then, and increasing/appreciating values for mobile home parks moving forward.
Jonathan Tuttle: Yeah, it just depends on the financing; because even right now, if the financing goes up another point - it's gone up to about 5.6 as we were getting quoted right now. With [unintelligible 00:11:35] who knows what they said; six more increases. Well, the cap rate should... But even our lenders - it's an anomaly, because the cap rates haven't changed on the parks side, and then you want that spread between the cap rate, you want to have two points, if you get a nice cash-on-cash on teens. But the parks - the people are coming in, the Wall Street guys are coming in, they don't even care. They're looking at to hold the property and just to place capital; they're placing large money. We lost a bid on a $21 million property. We got bid out by the second-biggest park owner. They’re not going to make money on it for four years, but then they're just land-grabbing, putting it into their portfolio, and then they'll exit out as part of their big sale, and they sell it for $5 billion, or whatever it is. So that's what's happening now. It’s not even for the cash flow; it's the tax benefits. It's like owning a piece of real estate that even if -- some of these people coming in are overpaying just to get it. It's getting to that point now, and people who come into space have heard the old stories, "Oh, parks are always high cap rates and all this," and now it's completely changed in the last couple of years.
Now it's one of the most competitive real estate, and now people are just really buying it just to buy it. Because they know in the long-term the demand's there. Depending on the cap rates, and the cap rates compared to the financing, but it's more just acquiring the park just because there's always a certain amount of parks that get torn down every year, so it's a dwindling supply, and that's the real key driver right there.
Break: [00:12:18.25] - [00:14:05.07]
Slocomb Reed: Jonathan, for the Best Ever listeners who listen every day to every episode that airs, about maybe every two or three weeks, they hear a mobile home parks episode. So we’re hearing similar narratives from different people with different perspectives on the space. One of the things that we've heard recently -- by recently, I mean the last few people who've been on to discuss mobile home parks -- is that what they consider to be overpayment right now for mobile home parks is that, because of the price is being paid and because of what's happening to the cost of debt right now, to your point, they're going to be operating in the red. Or they're new to the space and they're scaling faster than they understand the demands of the property, how hands-on the management is based on the tenant base. Even if you don't own the mobile homes themselves, you just own the pads, it's a more hands-on management asset than people expect, but also, a lot of people are underestimating capital expenses. You're nodding your head, for those who are just listening to the podcast and aren't watching on YouTube. Are you in complete agreement with everything I'm saying? What's your take on this?
Jonathan Tuttle: That statement is 100% correct. The story that's been sold - yes, five years ago it was just this turnkey property, that was kind of the story, that people just come to you and, as always, like an 8 or 10 cap, and just buy a park and sit back, and that's it. But now, all the people coming in, [unintelligible 00:15:37.20] podcast, people are hearing about it. I know a lot of other operators, and people coming in, they’re buying cap parks at a three cap. They're not going to make money, even if they have some creative financing. It's usually people that just have endless checks, and they're literally just trying to buy the property because they're foreseeing what's going to happen with the economy and then the housing.
The average house now is 375k. People are getting priced out of the market. It's just basically doing a land grab, and it's more just buying the asset to buy the asset. In regards to maintenance - yeah, a lot of these parks are 30, 40, and 50-years-old, the infrastructure. If you're not familiar with the asset class, the most important thing -- I saw something on TikTok, just like in the stories, “Oh, don't be afraid to put offers on mobile home parks without seeing them.” This is the kind of advice that you see online. Obviously, lessons will be more specific, but it’s the worst advice you'll ever get. Because most things you don't see at the park are the plumbing, the sewage, the systems underneath the land that could be hundreds of thousands of dollars to repair. You might say it's a small part, but you won't be making money for years if you've got to replace the whole infrastructure.
You definitely want to do extensive due diligence. A lot of these products have deferred maintenance. If it's a well-kept mom-and-pop park, yeah, then it could be more turnkey. But a lot of times 80% of the mom-and-pop industry, which is why the private equity come in, because they can add sophisticated systems, online payments, and websites... We're so far behind any other asset class, and then they’re like, “Okay, this is where we can add stuff into it,” but then at the same time, these homes can be 40 years old, so how much do you have to fix to flip the homes?
Then you have to understand the local legalities behind it. It's a different challenge than apartments. Apartment people are used to these certain things. We have different challenges because it just has a lot of variables. When you take over a park, you can have so many homes you have to fix, and if you don't have a team that can fix it, that could be a lot of labor. The fact that now the people coming in have a lot of money, it's a lot of ultra-high net worth... I get a family office calls once a week, I get some of the wealthiest people I've had conversations with - it's pretty amazing because they want to pick my brain, and that's the money that's coming into it now. If you're just a small operator, that's who you're competing with.
Slocomb Reed: Jonathan, you said a few things in rapid succession that I want to touch on. People who are operating in the red, who don't understand this asset class, getting into it, but also big money moving into the space. The possibility - as you said, you called it a land grab and you said these people are going to be operating at a loss for something like four years. You also said that these people have a business plan that allows for losing money for around four years. A part of this is the tax advantages of owning the real estate, and the kinds of people who are coming in, moving into the mobile home park space now are highly incentivized by the tax incentives of just owning the space, which could, for their finances globally, put their ownership of the property in the black. It could be operating at a negative, but it would have a net positive impact based on the tax advantages of the various strategies available to them because they own the real estate.
These people are overpaying from the perspective of operators like you. And I'm not in mobile home parks but I'm an owner-operator of apartments, and they're doing what would seem like overpaying to me as well. But it sounds like they have a business plan that allows for what they are paying for the space. They can take this, what we would consider a loss, short-term, and not fail.
It sounds like the answer is going to be no, and I've been surprised by how many people have said no. But Jonathan, are you expecting that there's going to be some sort of recession in mobile home parks where the people who have overpaid, who didn't know what they were getting themselves into, are selling at a discount just to get out of the space? Do you predict that happening?
Jonathan Tuttle: No. To break it down even further - because I'm talking about deals over $15 million, but the average deal is [unintelligible 00:19:53.11] $15 million. But anything under $15 million is still mom-and-pop, a small operator and those aren't going to be bid down as much, and you’ll still get a cap rate around 5, 5.5, maybe 6 in certain markets, tertiary markets. Also, the cost segregation, obviously, at the end of this year, it's going to go down; this last year you got 100%, next year -- we have the most advantageous tax advantages of all real estate.
That's when you have the engineer comes in, we get a 15-year depreciation schedule on about 70% of an asset. Most people are like, “Oh, no, it's land improvements." A little-known fact - you can depreciate that. People that have a high income and businesses with a high income, they use us to basically mitigate their other income sources, as long as you're a real estate professional by the IRS tax code.
To answer your question regards to, these things are so resilient. Even during the last recession, that's what really got a lot of people into the space. We have 94% collection rate, when everyone else, like certain industries were getting down like 65% to 70%. So when everyone didn't have to pay, they were still getting 94% collection during one of the worst times we've had in the last decade. In the last recession, 2008, we did really well as well. We were the second-best performer besides tech stocks. Wall Street Journal had an article on it. It's basically what you could do to comprehend that - here's the key factor that people want to take away from this. Besides the tax advantages, we're so far below rents compared to... An average house now is $375k. If the average mobile home lot rents $400, and the average person has to put 20% down or 10% down, maybe they get special financing, but their payment’s $2,000 a month, and then mobile home’s $400 a month, we have a lot of legroom. The average national apartment rent, what is it? $1,400 for a two-bedroom right now, $1,500 maybe, $1,400, right around there. So we could still raise the rents up.
You're seeing this, what so many people are doing and then you see the people complaining. They're raising their rents from $400 to $650, maybe $700, and that's what would allow them to make the note and still be profitable eventually.
Slocomb Reed: Jonathan, even with everything going on in mobile home parks right now and major players moving in, are you saying that the mobile home park asset class is still undervalued?
Jonathan Tuttle: Yeah, I think it's certainly a niche market. If you're doing anything over $15 million, you have to have a lot of cash. This very season, have a team... Here’s the thing. If you're buying 29 apartments, like, “I want to go buy $20 million mobile home parks.” Well, the team that you're competing with, they have an underwriter, they're going to know basically what the thing is going to trade for within a couple of hundred thousands maybe. They're putting offers like take it or leave it, and we're going on to the next deal. They’re putting down crazy offers.
The ones underneath $15 million, yes. I think that's where the opportunity for average, or if you're a smaller operator or syndicator, I think that's the opportunity. They're undervalued because of the supply and demand economics; we know where we’re going, huge inflation, we have all of the trends work to our advantage. The Baby Boomers, the Silver Tsunami. Besides the Baby Boomers retiring a day, the Silver Tsunami, which they’re predicting in the next 10 years, a lot of Baby Boomers will be selling off their assets and moving into more apartments and mobile home parks.
We're already 50%, our clientele is senior citizens. Our average tenancy is 14 years. We have all these trends. We have also the trend of people moving out of major cities, which happened with the COVID, and more people want to have more freedom. All these major trends and major indicators all benefit mobile home parks, and that's why it's so unique and so valuable.
Slocomb Reed: That's awesome. Jonathan, are you ready for the Best Ever lightning round?
Jonathan Tuttle: Yeah.
Slocomb Reed: Great. What is the Best Ever book you recently read?
Jonathan Tuttle: I like The Founders, it's PayPal Mafia. Obviously, Elon is doing a lot of big things, but he has all the founders. I like books because I used to read 100+. I use this Scribd app where you could have audio players, and then be on the treadmill. If you listen for an hour a day, you'll get 50 books a year, just on the treadmill. I've been liking books where it shows more about the grit, determination, the challenges they went through. Business books are kind of like, things change, markets change... Yes, you can learn a system, a process, but to learn the challenges, the stuff that you as an entrepreneur and business person going, if you want to see other entrepreneurs, they went through different struggles and how they overcame it. The Founders, the PayPal Mafia, it's a long book. It’s like 18 hours of audio. It's good.
Slocomb Reed: Wow. Yeah. What is your Best Ever way to give back?
Jonathan Tuttle: I've been on numerous boards of directors for different events in Chicago. I also throw a homeless dog event, which is the biggest homeless dog event. We raise money for homeless dogs. Taking that to Miami this year. It's been in Chicago. I'm moving to Miami this year. But I also did a bunch of other different charity boards, based on 100% non-profits. A lot of people just post on Facebook, like donate to this charity. I actually do my time on the weekends and I don't post it on social, but I actually do the work. Always giving back, it comes back to you.
Slocomb Reed: Yeah, absolutely. What is the biggest mistake that you've made thus far in mobile home park investing, and the best ever lesson that you've learned as a result?
Jonathan Tuttle: Not getting enough of them when they were cheaper.
Slocomb Reed: Well, how do we make this an applicable lesson to our Best Ever listeners?
Jonathan Tuttle: When you see trends in the marketplace and believe in your stuff... This time, when I started my fund, I had to do a lot of research. There wasn't a lot of information out there on how to do syndication. It's just that process, it took me like a couple of years to get really comfortable and get the legal, and the PPM, and all that stuff. I wish I was a little bit faster. I guess the speed to market, and finding partners who are willing to execute. It’s crazy, when you're raising capital -- when you don't need money, everyone hands it to you; when you need money, it's like, “Oh. I'm thinking about it."
Now it's like, I'll get people every week, they're like, “Oh, let's get a park. I want to get a park.” When I was doing all this advertising, everyone was like, “Oh, yeah, they sound kind of unique." Now it's like, [unintelligible 00:25:35.26] and then they just come to you. So just take the action, be first to market, and believe in yourself. If you can just have the right team, just go for it, and just don't let anyone else tell you not to.
Slocomb Reed: When you recognize a trend in the marketplace, take action, and believe in yourself. That being said, what is your Best Ever advice?
Jonathan Tuttle: My Best Ever advice correlates to that, to what I just said. One thing I'd say is definitely non-stop learning. Listen to podcasts like this. I’ve always been listening to podcasts since 2014, a couple of hours a day. Books, mentors, conferences, online courses, all that stuff. Just keep filling your brain and get it in front of people that are way, way ahead. Don't put yourself on add value. I always listen to people that were doing big things, and once you start building teams and building businesses, you'll have that conversation, you'll know how to navigate in front of the right people. So just really putting yourself out there and really continuing to learn, and not expecting anything to happen. Everything that's worthwhile, it takes a long time. Just keep on reinvesting in yourself.
Slocomb Reed: Jonathan, where can people get in touch with you?
Jonathan Tuttle: Speaking on the [unintelligible 00:26:37.25] Midwest Park Capital. I also have an info course which teaches people how to flip mobile homes and how to get their first mobile home park. It's called Mobile Home Wealth Academy, just how it sounds, and then just Jonathan Tuttle on Instagram, LinkedIn, and Facebook.
Slocomb Reed: Those links are available in the show notes.
Jonathan Tuttle: I also have a podcast coming out called The Accredited Investor Podcast where I'm going to have different people on from different assets and industries. I've got to mention that, so Accredited Investor Podcast as well.
Slocomb Reed: Awesome. Jonathan, thank you. Best Ever listeners, thank you as well for tuning in. If you've gained value from this episode, please do subscribe to our show, leave us a five-star review and share this episode with a friend who you know is interested in mobile home park investing. Thank you, and have a Best Ever day.
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