After buying 8 properties in small-town Indiana and failing miserably, Mike Stohler didn’t touch real estate for 10 years. Today, Mike is sharing 3 tactical mistakes he made looking back, his #1 tip for starting something out of your comfort zone, and why he would prefer paying significantly more for a partner than hiring a property manager.
Mike Stohler Real Estate Background:
- Full time Managing Partner of Gateway Private Equity Group where they have owned or currently own multifamily, single-family rentals, and hotels
- Currently does hotel syndications and owns a virtual assistant company that specializes in helping people in real estate
- Portfolio consists of over 1500 multifamily units owned or managed, around 20 single-family properties, and 2 branded hotels
- Based in Scottsdale, AZ
- Say hi to him at: www.gatewaype.com
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TRANSCRIPTION
Joe Fairless: Best Ever listeners, how are you doing? Welcome to the Best Real Estate Investing Advice Ever Show. I’m Joe Fairless. This is the world’s longest-running daily real estate investing podcast, where we only talk about the best advice ever. We don’t get into any of the fluffy stuff. With us today, Mike Stohler.
How’re you doing, Mike?
Mike Stohler: Doing great. Thank you for having me.
Joe Fairless: Well, I’m glad to hear it and it’s my pleasure. A little bit about Mike—he is a full-time managing partner of Gateway Private Equity Group, where they have owned or currently own multifamily, single-family rentals and hotels. He currently does hotel syndications and owns a virtual assistant company that specializes in helping people in real estate. His portfolio consists of over 1,500 multifamily units owned or managed, around 20 single-family properties, and two branded hotels. Based in Scottsdale, Arizona.
So with that being said, Mike, do you want to give the Best Ever listeners a little bit more about your background and your current focus?
Mike Stohler: Sure. As everyone knows, there’s a great Robert Kiyosaki book, that’s how we got started. Way back in the day, I call it PG, pre-Google days. I knew that real estate was it, got started, jumped in and failed miserably. Immediately bought eight houses in small town, Indiana, but I couldn’t google on “how to be a landlord.” So we failed miserably, I learned so much, and I knew that it was the right thing to do. So I actually went and got a job at a company that owned 8,000 units, and learned how to become a landlord.
And fast-forward to coming here in Scottsdale, we thought, “This is it.” I have the experience now. And I was an airline pilot at the time, and quit being an airline pilot, went full-time in real estate investments, and here we are. But man, did I learn a lot through failure?
Joe Fairless: How much money did you lose when you failed miserably?
Mike Stohler: Back then, it was probably $150,000.
Joe Fairless: Wow.
Mike Stohler: So much so we had to sell our house, we had to move in with my wife’s father. We basically lost it all. Because here’s the thing – if you go to the wrong seminars, there are some wonderful people and then there’s the not-so… But they said, “Hey, just do it.” So we put down payments on credit cards, we just jumped in, right? So we did everything wrong, and I didn’t know what I didn’t know in order to survive.
Joe Fairless: Looking back on it, what were a couple of the tactical mistakes that you made?
Mike Stohler: Number one is being focused on just one aspect. Now when I look back, once I started struggling — there are so many exit strategies that you can do; you can lease them back out, you can resell them. There’s just so many other things, but I just didn’t know it.
So when I failed, I thought, “Well, I have to give it back.” I didn’t know that there was any other way. I didn’t try to exit out and have any strategies, because I didn’t know of any. There’s no books, there’s no internet, there’s nothing, nowhere. And when you’re in a very small town, there’s really no one to ask. So that was the main thing.
And then what I learned is don’t be emotional when you buy something. There was a house that I could afford, so I just jumped in and bought it. But there’s no due diligence, there’s no inspection, there’s nothing. So now I have this house. I’m not a maintenance guy, I don’t know how to replace a roof. I didn’t know how to do any of this stuff, and then all sudden you get into it and there’s leaky pipes and there’s things that are wrong with it, and it was one snowball after the other. So that’s another thing, is never, never, never, never—this is commercial real estate, this isn’t your own house. Don’t get emotionally involved in the decision-making.
Joe Fairless: And when you say commercial real estate, are you referring to it being a rental home, not a primary residence?
Mike Stohler: Right. That’s what I mean.
Joe Fairless: Okay.
Mike Stohler: Yes, I know the definition of commercial. Yeah, my apologies. But yes, what I mean is, you can be emotional when it’s your own house, right? You know, the view, and the granite… And when we get into investing; it’s due diligence. Does it make money? Is it the right fit? It’s more of a checklist thing instead of an emotional thing.
Joe Fairless: How many homes did you buy? And by the way, we’re going to get to the good stuff in a moment—
Mike Stohler: It’s alright.
Joe Fairless: —but I just want to fully understand it. So how many homes did you buy before?
Mike Stohler: Perfect. Yeah, it was eight units. It was one fourplex and then for single-family homes. And how I bought them – it’s like, “Lord, if I could just go back and redo it again…” Can you believe that I actually got these, all of them, through the small college, and they did seller financing…? And here’s something that your listeners may or may not know is that a lot of colleges get bequeathed a lot of real estate, and they are not landlords. So I actually went and talked to the guy who’s in charge of the property… You know, he was the real estate guy for the local college. And he goes, “Yeah, you know, I don’t want these older homes.” So I worked out a seller financing, no banks… It was like the perfect thing, but I just didn’t know how to do it.
Joe Fairless: Okay, so you did seller financing with the college, because they didn’t want to own them, but they wanted to make money off of them…
Mike Stohler: Yeah.
Joe Fairless: And when you acquired them, I’m assuming that they didn’t cash-flow, because of the lack of due diligence that you described earlier. And then you just kept getting behind and behind because of the lack of cash flow, and then you had to give them back to the college… Is that what happened?
Mike Stohler: Yeah, that’s what happened. There’s some that had tenants in it, but things started going wrong, and I’d lose the tenants. And then I’m like, “Okay, well, how do I get tenants?” This is may be funny for the young listeners, but okay, I have to put an ad in the newspaper, you know…? I mean, this is back in the day, right? Put a notice at the laundromat… There was only maybe 2-3 ways to do it back then. But yeah, that’s what happens. Once I lost some of the tenants because things were going wrong, because I couldn’t afford to get a handyman, and I was trying to duct tape everything together, and then it was like, “Well, how do I even get a tenant? And then what kind of paperwork do I need for the tenant?” I didn’t have any leases. I didn’t know what a lease looked like. I was just told by seminar land to go out and buy.
Joe Fairless: Would you recommend someone else who’s starting out, would you recommend that they attend a real estate seminar as they’re starting out?
Mike Stohler: I would say yes. But don’t be a seminar junkie. It’s extremely important to go to seminar land to get knowledge, to get motivated. Be extremely careful if there, “Here’s my $5,000 package, do this today, and you’ll be a millionaire.” Just be cautious.
But the biggest thing is, whether it’s through seminars or whether it’s through other programs, it’s extremely, extremely, extremely important to have a mentor. So find a seminar or someone to learn from where they’re not off to the next city, and you never hear from them again.
Joe Fairless: Makes sense.
Mike Stohler: If I could go back and if I had a mentor that I could call , that I could now email – that is extremely, extremely important.
Joe Fairless: Alright, so let’s wrap up the first chapter, and how did it end? Did you give all the properties back to the bank—excuse me, to the college?
Mike Stohler: Yep, gave them all back; it was such a hard thing, and we didn’t touch real estate then for a little while. Because it was just—
Joe Fairless: How long?
Mike Stohler: About ten years.
Joe Fairless: That’s a little while. That’s [Crosstalk].
Mike Stohler: That’s a little while, and I even went to work for him, but then pull that trigger again. Because now we had to build back our credit, we had to build back regular jobs and things like that, because now it’s like, “Man, I couldn’t find any seller financing so I had to go to a bank”, but it was a while.
Break: [08:25] to [09:57]
Joe Fairless: This is my ignorance, because I’ve never done seller financing in this way… How does giving it back to the college hurt your credit, if it’s seller financing?
Mike Stohler: It was the credit card debt and all the other debt that we had.
Joe Fairless: Okay. Got it.
Mike Stohler: Yes. They did not record me.
Joe Fairless: Alright. So you gave the properties back, the fourplex and the four single-family homes. You went to work for the college after that. Did I hear that right?
Mike Stohler: I went to work for a very large property management group.
Joe Fairless: Okay.
Mike Stohler: Just learn, and take forms.
Joe Fairless: Yep. Okay.
Mike Stohler: Borrow forms and learn how to do things, learned what a five-day notice was, or just a checklist of what to do.
Joe Fairless: You said you were an airline pilot; were you also flying?
Mike Stohler: I was not. So what happened is I’ve learned all that stuff, and then when I was in corporate with them, I took my lunch breaks — and it was my dream to be a pilot. I got my pilot license when I was 17, which was extremely expensive. So on my lunch breaks, I’d go to the airport and fly around, and then I made the decision to become an airline pilot. Now I was making money, and now I could start reinvesting, because I was making good money. That’s when we got back into property.
Joe Fairless: Got it. So lost homes, came back to college, then work for a property management company, and then you became a compensated airline pilot?
Mike Stohler: Absolutely. Yeah.
Joe Fairless: Okay, got it.
Mike Stohler: Yeah. Yeah.
Joe Fairless: Got it. Okay.
Mike Stohler: Flew for Continental.
Joe Fairless: Got it. Alright, cool. What was the first deal after the eight units?
Mike Stohler: It was a small fourplex. And again, that was a little more of an emotional thing, because—okay, here we go. I didn’t learn my lesson, right? Let’s jump back in.
Joe Fairless: Are you still married?
Mike Stohler: Yes.
Joe Fairless: What was that conversation like with your wife for this next — round two? How did that go?
Mike Stohler: It was actually something that she agreed with, because I had all this past experience. And thank God for Google, we are now in the internet age. So I had resources. But something that we both agreed on was that I sought out and joined groups, you know, the REIAs, things like that, where I surrounded myself with like-minded individuals that I could ask things too, but that was the only way that we could do it, is that I surround myself with people that knew what they were doing that were ahead of me. That allowed us to do it.
Joe Fairless: The fourplex?
Mike Stohler: The fourplex. Yep.
Joe Fairless: I see. How was it bought the financing-wise? And how much did you put down of your own money?
Mike Stohler: Yep, it was 20%. That one was around $40,000 down.
Joe Fairless: And this is in Scottsdale?
Mike Stohler: Yeah, the Phoenix area.
Joe Fairless: Okay. Phoenix area.
Mike Stohler: Yep.
Joe Fairless: And just bank financing?
Mike Stohler: Bank financing.
Joe Fairless: Okay. And then take us through—how many deals after that until you got to hotel syndications?
Mike Stohler: A lot.
Joe Fairless: Oh, really?
Mike Stohler: Yeah. So I was still an airline pilot, but then bought the fourplex and then saved up the money, bought a seven plex, another eight plex or nine plex. And that was just with our money. And then the crash was starting to happen, the recession. And then I was like, “Oh, man, there’s some really good properties out there that are cash-flowing.” But what happened in the commercial areas, you had all these cash-flowing properties, they’re still doing very nice, but they didn’t evaluate at the end of their term, the loan. So you have all of these commercial properties, apartment complexes that are on five, seven or 10-year notes, and then you’d have to refinance them. And even though they cash-flowed, because of the recession, they were worth instead of a million dollars, they were only worth $600,000 just because of the evaluation; the banks would not give these cash-flowing properties, loans.
So we started buying some more, and I got injured as an airline pilot – that’s another story… But then I started looking—because at that time, I had a property management group and I was like, “Man, these guys are nickel and diming me. No wonder I’m not making a lot of money.”
Joe Fairless: You had one meaning, you had hired—
Mike Stohler: I had hired one because I was flying.
Joe Fairless: A third party?
Mike Stohler: Yeah. I was gone four days out of the week.
Joe Fairless: Sure.
Mike Stohler: But this allowed me to kind of use my expertise that I had gathered a long time ago, to really look at what was really going on… Because all I was getting was these monthly reports. So I fired them. I was like, “You know, I’m going to do this myself. You know, I’m going to be on disability for several months.” And all sudden, it started rolling, I started remembering things and we started making money. And I was like, “You know what? I can quickly surpass—.” My wife is on a W-2, so we needed new loans. That was fine. So I quit. Then all of a sudden, we got a 20 unit, a 28 unit, another one of those, and then a 50-unit…
Joe Fairless: Wow.
Mike Stohler: And we just started rolling, and now we’re talking maybe five years ago, and we’re just accumulating these apartment complexes, and I was also buying single-family homes. Those are not rentals, we do what’s called lease to own on those, lease options… Because I don’t want to be going all over the place and fixing things. Then I had this 150-unit, I had it for 10 months and this group out of Idaho just emailed me and said, “We want to buy your complex.”
Joe Fairless: They wanted it more than you.
Mike Stohler: I was like, “No,” because — God, it was bringing home a lot of money.
Joe Fairless: What was it bringing in?
Mike Stohler: I was taking in, just in, $80,000 a year off of that one complex.
Joe Fairless: You said in fees. Will you elaborate on that?
Mike Stohler: Yeah, so I would take owner distributions, and just property management fees… And then I had — because I was in the property management part, I was controlling the loan. So I’d take 1%, and I was taking these little fees, 1% of the loan amount, because I was in charge of the loan. So you can kind of develop some of these little fees that you can get where it’s not an actual property management income.
Joe Fairless: Did you buy this with investors, or were they all your own?
Mike Stohler: Just myself.
Joe Fairless: Just yourself.
Mike Stohler: Yeah, on that one.
Joe Fairless: With the fee—help me understand. If it’s just your money, then is the fee just moving money from one bank account to another?
Mike Stohler: Yeah, it’s diversifying the expenses of the multifamily. Whether or not that is necessary—I had a CPA that was telling me, “Don’t take this big salary with property management owner”, because I was taking not only property management fees, but owner distributions, and they’re like, “Look, at some point, you’re going to have to actually declare it a salary and start taking withholdings and—.”
Joe Fairless: Got it. Fair enough.
Mike Stohler: So it’s like, “Let’s do these little fee things, so it’s not just one big salary.”
Joe Fairless: Got it. Okay.
Mike Stohler: But these guys kept coming back at me. And I was like, “Nope.” They flew down there and looked at it, met with me, and they gave me another offer, and I said, “Well, let me think about it” and then they finally gave me this one offer. I was like, “My God, I’ve had this thing for 10 months.” It was in a very, very nice area. So, I’m going to be fool if I don’t sell it. I made $860,000 in 10 months.
Joe Fairless: Wow.
Mike Stohler: So I had to sell it.
Joe Fairless: Yeah. What did you buy it for?
Mike Stohler: 2.4. Sold it for 3.25, something like that.
Joe Fairless: And how much did you put into it over those 10 months?
Mike Stohler: Oh, hardly anything. It was full. This complex was government-assisted, where the government pays the leases. So I had very little turnover, very little maintenance. The person that I bought it from took really good care of it, a lot of great landscaping… Just basic stuff that happens. And because I could kick them off the government program, they took care of it. So when someone did move out, there was not that much to do.
Joe Fairless: So that was a 50 unit. And then did you 1031 that money?
Mike Stohler: I did, I had to. So that is when I got—
Joe Fairless: Why do you have to?
Mike Stohler: Of course you don’t have to.
Joe Fairless: Okay.
Mike Stohler: I mean, you could pay taxes on it.
Joe Fairless: You felt compelled to…
Mike Stohler: I felt compelled. I felt compelled to, because at that point I had round $1.3 million total, because of some of the other 1031 exchanges that I’d put down, plus the down payment, plus what I made… So I had around 1.3 total, and I had been 1031-ing all around. So that is when it’s like – man, at that point here in the Arizona area, the Phoenix area, the cap rates were getting extremely, extremely low. And I don’t know if I’m old school or maybe I just don’t understand it, but I did not want to then buy another complex at a four cap. And they were getting down even in the high threes for some good ones. So that’s when, through my mentorship and through all this sort of stuff, I knew this guy that had about 20 years experience in hospitality. And for all your listeners out there, if you want to get into something that is outside of your comfort zone, how can you do it?
And I had one of my mentors, I talked to him and he said, “Here’s what you do – you give this guy that has all this experience an offer he can’t refuse.” So what I did, I said, “Hey, find us a hotel. I’m not going to give you a salary. I’ll give you a property management. But I will make you, on the backend, a percentage ownership.” So now he has a reason to make this thing work. In doing so, he was going to teach me everything that he knew about hotels. So I had a built-in mentor that is running the operations on this hotel, and he’s doing extremely well, and it is now worth $3 million more than what we paid for it.
Joe Fairless: What did you buy it for?
Mike Stohler: I bought it for $5 million. And we have now people that are trying to buy it for around $8 million.
Joe Fairless: Wow. Why aren’t you selling it to them?
Mike Stohler: You could call it a little bit greed, or anything like that. But I think this area is really, really growing. A lot of manufacturing – it’s full all the time. We’re just really doing well, and I think there’s a little more room. In the past, I’ve gotten greedy to where I’ve sold too quickly, because I was like, “Man, this is a lot of money, I’m going to sell” and then I wish I held it for another year.
Joe Fairless: But it got you to this point, and I wouldn’t say that’s greedy. That’s just taking some chips off the table and putting it on your pocket, and then reinvesting.
Mike Stohler: Yeah.
Break: [20:35] to [23:15]
Joe Fairless: You gave the person some upside in the deal. So you gave them a kicker at the end, should it become successful, which it sounds like it will.
Mike Stohler: Yeah.
Joe Fairless: How much?
Mike Stohler: I’m giving him 20%.
Joe Fairless: Wow.
Mike Stohler: Yep.
Joe Fairless: That’s more than I thought it was going to be.
Mike Stohler: Yeah.
Joe Fairless: 20% of what?
Mike Stohler: 20% of what we make at the end.
Joe Fairless: Wow.
Mike Stohler: So if it’s now worth 8-8.5, I’ve built in that I get my $1.3 million back that I put down, and then whatever’s left, I get 80% and he gets 20%.
Joe Fairless: Good for you, and good for him.
Mike Stohler: And good for him. And here’s the thing – now I have someone that doesn’t need the money, that still wants to work and get in the game, and… He’s busting his butt, he’s doing everything, we’re in weekly calls. It is now a partner, and it’s worth it to him, it’s worth it to me.
Joe Fairless: Absolutely. And a lot of people would get tripped up over the 20%. “Well, 20%?! I could pay a property management company significantly less.” And that’s a fee, let alone the profit of the deal.
Mike Stohler: Yep.
Joe Fairless: What would you say to someone who has that mindset?
Mike Stohler: Here’s the thing – every single property management group on the face of the Earth I think, unless they have an ownership stake, they are not invested in that property. It is one of many. And I’ve seen property management companies, even on some of my other stuff in the past, I’m like, “Why didn’t you catch this? Why didn’t you see this? Why am I, the owner, the one that’s catching the fact that this water bill is $150 a month higher than it was?” They don’t care. They get a bill and they pay it. Something happens, they don’t care if it’s the highest plumber out there or the lowest. They just don’t care. All they care about is their fees. They’re not invested. I now know — and yes, it’s going to cost me 20% if we sell in 10 years or eight years in total, but I have a guy that actually is invested in the property and cares about it. Because if he runs it in the ground, he’s worked now for five years, six years, and he’s not going to get anything out of it.
Joe Fairless: First off, I applaud and agree with your approach. But I assume there are some safeguards in place should he sign on the contract or the operating agreement, or whatever it is, that says “I get 20%,” and then he leaves. Because you have to make it successful. So what safeguards did you have in place to prevent that from happening?
Mike Stohler: Yeah, it’s a great question. When you start dealing with JV agreements and all the paperwork, number one, you go through a reputable firm, and you say, “This is what we’re going to do” and “How can I safeguard myself?” Number one, is, if he says all of a sudden, “I’m leaving,” he has to give me notice, and that’s fine. But then that 20% drops off. He has to be employed at the time of the sale for it to go through. Also, if he decides to leave, there is recourse, because we’re tied — his LLC and my LLC has a combined LLC, which has another agreement to it, but he’s tied to it. It’d be difficult for him to say, “Mike, I’m just leaving”, without there being some recourse within the paperwork saying that, “You have to give me this notice.”
Joe Fairless: So after you’ve signed the agreement, however many years ago, if he left in three months from signing that, would he have any ownership?
Mike Stohler: No.
Joe Fairless: How long did he have to manage it?
Mike Stohler: Until it sells?
Joe Fairless: Okay, got it. I’m sorry. You said that.
Mike Stohler: Yep.
Joe Fairless: So if he’s not currently a partner, then he does not get that 20%.
Mike Stohler: Absolutely.
Joe Fairless: Alright. Sorry, I missed that. Okay.
Mike Stohler: Yep. That’s what it is tied to. That 20% is tied to him managing.
Joe Fairless: What if he’s still around, his heart’s still ticking, and he responds to emails, but he’s just not doing anything? Does he still get the 20%?
Mike Stohler: No, there’s a provision that I can fire him as the property manager, because his LLC is considered the management company.
Joe Fairless: Got it. So you can fire him for not performing at any time. And if you do that, he does not get any ownership?
Mike Stohler: Correct. Because that ownership is tied into the sale of the property, with him being on the paperwork. So the provision is, I can give him 30-day notice that he’s no longer my management, and then when that LLC drops off, then the agreement with that 20% of that sale is void.
Joe Fairless: I’m grateful that we got into this; we’ve got to keep going and wrap this up… But thank you for getting into the details. This is going to be so beneficial for a lot of our listeners.
Mike, what is your best real estate investing advice ever?
Mike Stohler: My best advice ever is – don’t do it alone, everyone. Not only get a mentor, but get a team. Things that have absolutely saved me is the ability to reach out to someone that has a lot of experience, and just pick their brain, ask them questions. And then also have a team around me, like these attorneys that are able to get the paperwork together that protects me from, for instance, the questions that Joe was asking me about my partner, extremely important.
Joe Fairless: Yeah, the more deals you do and the more higher net worth that you have, the more important it is to make sure you have someone with a legal mind looking out on your behalf. And I’m so grateful that you got into the details of the different partnerships. The first one that didn’t go too well with the college, but you learned a whole lot, and now fast-forward a decade-plus to the one that did.
We’re going to do a very quick lightning round, which is a bit redundant, quick lightning round, but I’m still going to say – are you ready for the Best Ever lightning round?
Mike Stohler: Yes, sir.
Joe Fairless: Best ever way you like to give back to the community.
Mike Stohler: Great question. I am on the board of several charities, and I absolutely love giving my time and the funds. I’ve been extremely lucky in my life. But that is how – to be able to actually be on the boards and give back, because I’m a veteran. Veterans are a big part of my life. But that’s the biggest ways, for me to do charities.
Joe Fairless: Well, thank you, sir, for your service. I wholeheartedly mean that, and I’m grateful for everything that you did and your colleagues did, and everyone who’s serving still is doing for us to keep us safe and allow us to focus on other things besides the nasty stuff that goes on overseas.
Mike Stohler: Yeah.
Joe Fairless: How can the Best Ever listeners learn more about what you’re doing?
Mike Stohler: Please find me on LinkedIn. It’s Michael Stohler. And let me know how you found me and I will give back that way. If you have any questions for me, ask me anything that you want, and I’ll make sure to try to mentor everyone and all of your listeners. You can also find us at www.gatewaype.com, PE as in Private Equity.
Joe Fairless: Mike, thanks for being on the show again, thanks for sharing your experiences, getting into the specifics of different partnerships, what works, what doesn’t work and how to safeguard yourself against certain things. I appreciate you being on the show, I hope you have a best ever day and talk to you again soon.
Mike Stohler: Take care, Joe. See you, everyone.
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