Slocomb Reed hosts seasoned commercial real estate investor, Kurt Weil. The duo delves into the intricacies of syndications, the pitfalls of partnerships, and the changing dynamics of commercial real estate investments in today's fast-paced world. For anyone diving into commercial real estate or looking to refine their strategies, this conversation with Kurt is a goldmine of actionable advice.
Key Takeaways:
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Transcript
Slocomb Reed (00:00.709)
Best ever listeners. Welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I'm Slocomb Reed. Today we are joined by Kurt Weil, a good friend of mine. Actually. He is also based here in Cincinnati, Ohio. His company is Incline Commercial. He is a commercial mortgage broker. He is also a real estate investor. His current portfolio consists of a multifamily and industrial flex, both personally owned and in syndications.
Kurt, can you tell us a little bit more about your background and what you're currently focused on?
Kurt Weil (02:46.926)
Sure, my background has been inside banking in the commercial real estate realm, underwriting commercial loans to becoming a broker. Currently working on navigating this market with commercial real estate loans and finding ways to get deals done. And on the investment real estate side, really just increasing efficiencies, being happy with what I have at the moment. And seeing how to maximize profitability on those properties.
Slocomb Reed (03:24.96)
Nice. I want to focus this conversation on your, uh, your loan brokering Kurt, cause I think it has a lot. I think it has a lot to, um, to say to inform us about what's happening in a commercial real estate today. The, the first question I'll ask though, you're a commercial mortgage broker. Again, I already said you're a friend of mine. So, uh, for the sake of our audience, let me give them a bit of the background that I give on you when I refer you to a friend or a client of mine. And that is that Kurt can write loans on a lot of things, but one of his specialties is on local banks, especially on recourse debt, which means any debt under a million dollars, but any recourse debt in general from a local bank, because instead of representing one lender, what Kurt does is he keeps his ear to the ground to know what local lenders have an appetite for what kinds of loans based on several factors. I can let him get into those. But Kurt...
Uh, Kurt spends his time, uh, navigating the local lenders in the greater Cincinnati area and a few others, I believe, in order to make sure that when a client comes to him looking to borrow for an acquisition or a refi, he's putting them in front of the bank that wants that loan the most, meaning that they'll give the most compelling rate and terms to get the loan. Is that fair? Kurt?
Kurt Weil (05:30.654)
Yes, I would say that's a fair assessment.
Slocomb Reed (05:36.216)
So, let's go this way. Um, we're, we're recording in, uh, at the beginning of Q4 2023. Um, this, this episode should air pretty soon. So this information, time sensitive information will be fairly, uh, will still be fairly prescient thinking about the lenders that you work with, or at least communicate with Kurt, what are you seeing about how much their appetite for loans...
Not just what interest rates are, but what are you seeing about how their appetite for loans has shifted in the last 90 days?
Kurt Weil (06:18.262)
I would say that the largest focus that every lender I work with is based on appetite for loans. It has shifted greatly. I say that where the most emphasis that a lender is putting is on appetite for the loan itself. It's more that everything has become a case by case basis. It's not where this time last year.
Yeah, any investment deal you got, send it my way. We're gonna do X, Y, and Z. It's now you run through a deal with a lender and say, hey, this is what I got. And they'll go, yeah, we'll take a look at it. But they're very hesitant because I think that right now, a lot of lenders are still defining or figuring out what they wanna do, what they don't wanna do, I guess probably more most importantly, what can they do? With that being said, it's...
What can they do is more of an assessment of them as a lender with their liquidity, maybe their liquidity issues if they have them, a lot of banks are pulling back. So that is probably the key question on any conversation that I'm having is, can you do it more so than do you want it? I think a lot of lenders want it, but can they do it becomes the main shifting question as opposed to
This time last year, it wasn't even a question.
Slocomb Reed (07:49.908)
Kurt, you said lenders are pulling back on liquidity. Can you explain that? Not only what that means directly, but also what it means with regards to their appetite to lend in the commercial real estate space.
Kurt Weil (07:55.939)
Sure. And the liquidity, so what happened was, say this time last year, banks were, they had liquidity, they were lending off their liquidity. But then again, when they were borrowing at overnight fund rate, that was nothing, almost nothing. They were able to lend at better rates. Now that everything's gone up, of course, they're getting charged interest to lend money.
So it's costing them, excuse me, whereas they would rather use their liquidity that they have and liquidity is becoming more and more of an issue. And when I say liquidity to a bank, that means deposits. Every bank is coming after wanting more deposits. When they're able to lend that, excuse me, they're able to lend that more profitable than as if they borrowed money and then lent that out again.
What does that mean for real estate investment overall? That goes back to there being pickier and choosier of what type of deals they're taking on. Whereas, they may have enough liquidity to be able to take on say a $10 million deal. And it's a slam dunk $10 million deal that is like the best underwriting that they have, but then the client needs the best rates and terms. Would they rather go and book that 10 million on that one deal and be done, or would they rather go take 10 $1 million deals that maybe aren't A paper, but as we'll call them B paper, and get a little bit of higher rate and not have to concede on rates and terms? So they're a little more pickier. Do I take the lowest risk deal but then give out the lowest profit margin, with meaning the lowest rate to them? Or do I divvy that up and separate my risk with 10 higher risk, little bit higher risk mortgages, but get a higher rate of return for myself by having a better spread? So that's in essence why I think they're being pickier and choosier is how can they manage their lack of liquidity and what they can land and still optimize profitability. Because after all, banks are businesses.
Slocomb Reed (11:17.393)
So the current, let me see if I can summarize a piece of what you just said. And then, and then if I'm correct, make an assumption and let you, uh, let you correct me where I'm wrong or tell me how this actually works. The, um, with the federal funds rate increasing and banks having to pay to borrow money, they would much rather lend their own liquidity, their own cash, meaning deposits and deposit accounts.
Uh, therefore, well, let me ask it this way, cause I know some investors who have done this. If I'm interested in engaging a lender, uh, for a loan or building a long-term relationship with that bank, is there any, should I be using the cash I have in the bank as leverage while trying to get a loan? Kurt, um, if I'm trying to get juicier terms or, uh, not, not even juicier, but terms at all for an acquisition that I know is going to go well, should I be looking into moving my deposits to the, to the lending bank as an incentive for the bank to lend me those funds? Is there, uh, is there a good rule of thumb here? Is this an actual practice that is valuable to investors.
Kurt Weil (12:44.142)
That's a very good question. And I think that there's no particular rule of thumb in terms of the investor side. I think more so it's kind of being defined right now as we go through this. When we went through other banking issues in the past, this issue that we run into now wasn't the case before. So there's no rule of thumb, historically speaking.
Whereas on the lender side, you know, when they're doing a deal, they're requiring now, I would say nine times out of 10, they're requiring like the operating checking of the deal they're doing. So if you're buying a 10 unit, they want the operating checking. If they're going to do the loan, they want the operating checking along with the property itself. So they want to see all those rent deposits come in. They want to see all the expenses come out. They want to hold that deposit.
Now in terms of if you... Go ahead.
Slocomb Reed (13:44.23)
Kurt, that has more to do with the bank's ability to track the performance of the asset though than having more liquidity to then lend, right?
Kurt Weil (13:58.861)
Um...
It has more to do with, yeah, they don't, I wouldn't say they necessarily track it in terms of they're not monitoring your account every month to see if you're profitable or not. They do want to make sure that you're making a mortgage payment and they're able to see the account if you're not, which is one benefit. Another one is that they are getting those transactions, the transactions, getting the depository, you know, the transactional fees off of it if there are those kind of expounding the whole relationship more than just one investment loan. I think narrowing in more on what you're talking about, if someone has a large amount of liquidity sitting on the sidelines, say at some bank, if you are looking for better rates and terms, is it possible to negotiate by bringing over a large deposit account? Sure, it is. But then I think that you get into a few different things that may be beneficial, may not be beneficial. As an investor, you know, is the bank, if you say, Hey, I'll bring a quarter of a million dollars, but I want it into a money market, a business money market account making five, five and a quarter percent interest. It's not really benefiting the bank, right? As much as you may think it is, because you're still getting paid interest on your money, you're still getting paid out, they still have to do that. Whereas, you know, some banks might say, yeah, we would love that deposit. Here's the two things that we want. And this is where you can get kind of get stuck on that. Is one they want it in a non-interest bearing account. Well, non-interest bearing account, they want to be able to lend off of it and not pay you interest on it if you're doing a commercial real estate loan, say like a five one arm, they may want to hold that entire 250 for that five year term. So they may say, yeah, we'd love the deposit, but we want to keep it as long as you have the commercial real estate loan. So they could put a hold on that. And does it benefit you to get maybe a quarter percent or a half percent off your mortgage rate? I mean, I don't know, as an investor, if I got to tie up an extra quarter of a million or whatever that may be given the scenario you, I think you would have to assess that yourself because the way I look at it is, and maybe I'm wrong, but I look at it as well, I've gone back to banks and said, well, why would I tell my client to do that? If it's not interest-bearing, I might as well tell them instead of 25% down, I might as well tell them to put 30% down, at least that way they're going to pay less interest and rather than keep it sitting in the bank, not making anything. And if you got to keep it that long, then we'll get it back out on a refi when we're done in five years.
So it could be incentivized up front to help negotiate better terms, but in the long run, is it really better for the investor? So far, I haven't seen a lot of banks willing to play ball to make it worth it in that case. So it's still, I think, a field being felt out of what is a happy medium.
Slocomb Reed (17:22.346)
Kurt, I have a specific scenario for you. Let's just talk about me and my own personal example here, and then you can tell me whether or not, if our listeners are in similar situations to me, this could be advantageous to them. Again, coming back to the summary that lenders are wanting to lend out of liquidity more than anything else, meaning that they need to have, they need to have money in deposit accounts in order to lend at more favorable terms so that they're not paying to borrow the money to lend out. So talking about getting liquidity to a bank to make it more favorable to them, to lend to me at better terms.
Um, I, I am an owner operator. I also have a third party management company. I hold all the security deposits for all the properties I manage mine, mine with partners and third party. It, they sit in a deposit account that is intentionally non interest bearing for a lot of reasons, long story short, if it bears interest, it's the tenants, it's the tenants interest and not the landlords. It's not going to bear a lot of interest. And so it doesn't make sense to go through the hassle of doing that. Just leave it in an honor, just bearing account. But at this point, that number for me, those security deposits that I'm holding in deposit accounts at a bank is low six figures. That bank doesn't, I don't have any loans with that bank. There's nothing really compelling me to keep them at the place that they are. I'm sure there are other investors listening to this right now who find themselves in a similar situation or are invested in syndications that could do something similar with their security deposits. Again, a lot of capital, non-interest bearing, sitting in an account and the balance should remain relatively stable because whenever money is distributed out of there, you're looking to get another security deposit back into that account as you want to get that apartment leased up pretty soon.
If anything, the amount of money on deposit should increase as the property is operated because you're increasing your rents, you're decreasing your vacancy that brings security, the amount of security deposits on deposit up. Low six figures sits in the non-interest bearing deposit account. Balance shouldn't go anywhere. Is that a tool that I and our listeners can be using to get better rates on our loans and if so, how so?
Kurt Weil (20:10.99)
It can be, and I think what that really comes down to is you have to engage the lender that you're speaking with and have a conversation. What does this do for you? Does this help you? Can we build some type of mutually beneficial relationship here where you can tell them, hey, it's essentially like an IOLTA account. It's essentially escrowed money that can't bear interest. And those are good, yeah, and those are good to have for this particular example where, yeah, if you have that ability to be able to move it wherever and put it there and say, hey, you know, I can keep this on deposit and it's gonna be, especially when you can say the balance isn't gonna change much, if anything, it will go down one month, but the next month it's gonna go up probably higher than it was for exact reasons that you said with
you know, once you turn a unit, you're going to get higher deposit, higher rent. Um, it becomes a negotiation game. What, what is the lender, you know, if they're looking for the depository relationship, if you can hold it there for longer term, if it's going to help build a relationship. Yeah. A lot of times they'll give you, um, better deals on, on certain things. You know, some banks, you got to be careful cause they're running promos.
You know, oh, well, you know, you may think you're negotiating with them, but then they just may be reading you off the promo of like, well, we have free treasury management for six months. But then after the six months, it's fee heavy. So you don't want to get entrapped in something. But is it a good time to talk about moving deposits in this Q4, going into Q4 of 2023? When you're looking for a real estate investment loan? Absolutely. It's something to definitely dangle in front of them.
And then just, you know, if you're not working with a broker or if you're working with yourself, you know, having that conversation. And then a lot of times as a broker or just as myself, the way I would do it for myself, as I do my clients, I would bring up that conversation and say, Hey, you know, there's a, there's a depository account to be captured here too. Is that going to make a difference? And I kind of wait to see what type of reaction they have. Um, because it's thrown a lot of people, it throws a lot of bankers off. They're getting drilled in their heads from the higher up that, hey, we got to capture more depository accounts. We have to get the full relationship. And when they say full relationship, it's like, we just don't want the loan. We want the deposits. And now when you come to them and say, hey, I have a deposit, they're like, oh, okay. It kind of throws them off. So if they're super excited about it.
I can't imagine there's a bank out there that says, no, we don't want your deposit account. But how excited they get or what they start talking about, what they can do with it. That's probably the key to really understanding of how bad do they want it, what are they willing to give for it? So it's kind of hard to say, maybe as the individual investors, they don't do it every day, but in my perspective, that's what I look for. I kind of look for their reactions when you say that of what, you know, yeah, we love that. Yeah, we need deposits. Or then they start going on a spiel or whatever. That's when you know, like, okay, well, if I do that, what do I get in return? And see if there's negotiation room.
Slocomb Reed (23:48.436)
That makes a lot of sense. Long story short, it's good to have liquidity. Banks want it, we should want it. With the interest rate volatility and possible market volatility, it's helpful to have cash in the bank and it's also helpful when you can use that cash in the bank to get better loan terms. I'd like to shift the conversation here, Kurt. I...
Uh, to, to be fair to our listeners, Kurt and I have spoken about this in the last week or so, uh, off, off the, uh, off the podcast, uh, there is an interesting perspective that, um, transactional brokers and mortgage brokers have on the industry and that they are, uh, they effectively have the ability to look into the future, um, short term, the next 30, 60, maybe 90 days and see what kinds of transactions are coming down the pipeline while also in the case of someone like Kurt, being able to see how banks are reacting to the contracts and the properties that they're being brought. Again, it's the beginning of where we're recording at the beginning of the fourth quarter of 23. What kind of shift have you seen in the commercial real estate market apartments and otherwise. And is there anything that you're seeing coming up in the next 30, 60, 90 days? Do you think the listeners should be aware of based on, based on your personal, the, the experience limited to your own mortgage brokering.
Kurt Weil (25:31.9)
I would say that in terms of changes that I'm seeing, more on the front end, contract negotiation. So I would say that compared to a year ago, which is the same comparison I like to keep using, I would say compared to a year ago this time, it's getting a little more creative. Contracts are getting more creative. It's not your typical seller name the price as is, whereas this is how we're gonna close, waive all inspections, you know, 30 days DD, 30 day close period. Now it's changing a little bit.
Whether it be, you know, there's a little more negotiation where there's a retrade, you know, I find that happening more after inspection, where seller make credits in closing costs, or there's gonna be some type of seller credit to the deal, or maybe some type of creative financing piece put into place. I'm seeing some seller finance pieces, like a seller note for maybe like 5% here or there.
I would say it's getting a little more creative. I think that there's not as much liquidity out on the market as there was. We've printed a lot of money in the past and as that dries up and consumer spending kind of stops, like not everybody has as much liquid to invest anymore either. So that buyer pool is dundling down the same as sellers understand that they're not getting that what I call make me retire price where someone's just come in and offering what they never thought they could get for it. So now that I think things are coming back to terms where you have a buyer that is, you know, has another barrier to entry, not just with a high purchase price, but now you have higher interest rates, and now you have a seller that, for whatever reason, has to sell. If they don't, I'm seeing deals die because the seller's just like, hey, I'm cashflow and I don't care, I'll stick with it. But in terms where the deal has to go through, the buyers are able to get, I would say, more creative or finally something beneficial on the buyer's side, if you will.
Slocomb Reed (28:46.952)
All right, Kurt, I've got a few quick questions here for you and then we'll transition the episode again. First, uh, creative terms in purchase contracts, separating into categories, um, buyers, finally getting buyer contingencies in the contract again, inspection, property diligence, set all that aside. When it comes to creative deal structuring terms and creative financing terms for commercial real estate.
How have the lenders you work with been receiving those? Are they allowing seller carry back second mortgages in a way that they weren't before? Are there other things that they are or are not allowing?
Kurt Weil (29:33.474)
Good question. I think that.
I wouldn't say that any floodgates have opened where it's like, oh, there was never seller financing allowed in a subordinate second lien position behind the lender. I feel as if those that were already okay with it, they're continuing to still do it. There may be a couple, I would say smaller lenders that, you know, like, yeah, we're okay with it. Like, they'll, you know, they'll be okay with it.
I would say like the bigger banks that are always like, nah, we don't want that, we don't want that. You know, they stick to their guns in times of pulling back especially. So I think it comes down to finding the right lender that has the comfortability of doing it because one downside for a buyer to do that as well, excuse me, is the fact that that's going to hurt the cash flow of the property overall, because you have two payments. I don't want to say hurt, but it's going to impact the cash flow of the property overall as well. Not only are you going to put a first mortgage in place with a lender where they're going to calculate cash flow, but they're going to add in that second payment, whether it's interest only, whether it's amortized over a certain period of time. So that impacts it. And I think that lenders that have done it, that are comfortable with it will keep doing it because it's a normal course of business. Those who haven't done it aren't really opening up to do it more, especially in a time like this. But some other creative things that I've seen is like, I had one client who I would have loved to have done the deal for him, but the way it sits is he was able to negotiate the entire purchase, which was, I think, like two and a half million on a seller note. And there was a client of mine who talked to me about it, and I said, look, you're getting a better rate and they're gonna give you a 30 year amortization on this thing, you're gonna pay a lot less in cost, just record it and do it with the seller. Like putting a loan on it doesn't make sense. Like it would benefit me, but I don't think it would benefit you. So I'm like, don't put a loan on it. I said, more so use that by putting almost no money down, use all the liquidity that you had to rehab the project. It was a larger multifamily project that needed some log and interior renovations to get top market rent. So I'm like, look, do the two year thing. You know, get units renovated, start getting cash flow, use a seller note, and in two years, let's reassess. If rates are lower than what you have the seller note on, and you have all this excess liquidity into it that you put in to redo units and it's cash flowing better, now we have a stabilized product where now this is probably where we go to a bank and refinance. So I've actually started to see that strategy work more. What incentivizes a seller to do 100% seller note? I'm not exactly sure. Sometimes it offsets taxes if they're of retirement age and they're not going to keep 1031 out. Again, I'm not a tax professional, but they may have their own incentives. But if you can find that, I found that to be a great vehicle in a time where lenders are pulling back, seller doesn't see as much risk because now they have a property that they've known their whole life, they can take it back and manage it. They've already done it. So that's another scenario that I've seen rather than just holding like 5% back or 10% back to help with down payment.
Slocomb Reed (33:20.24)
That makes sense. Two more questions. We got to do this rapid fire. Unfortunately, we're running out of time. Outside of the recording, Schmergi is already in the waiting room and I don't want to let him in until we finish this part.
Kurt Weil (33:32.534)
I talked to him earlier today and I said, you got to give me a 15 minute curb buffer.
Slocomb Reed (33:37.068)
So he showed up 15 minutes early naturally. That's how much we respect each other. Kurt, my last two questions here and then we'll transition. They're both about transactional volume in the market. How many deals are pending? How many deals are getting funded? How many deals are closing? So we can look at your year over year numbers. I think that's really helpful. My first question is, of the properties that are going under contract, if you're aware, recognizing that you, um, that not, that not all buyers are working with you, of course, of the, of the buyers who are getting properties under contract, uh, how has the number that actually get, uh, bank financing changed? Is it, is it, is it a higher percentage of them? Is it a lower percentage and then transaction volume, transactional volume overall? And if you want to break this up by asset class, or loan size purchase price feel free. What has the transactional volume done recently? I assume it's going down, but what does that really look?
Kurt Weil (34:44.333)
Um, to put it in perspective, last year, um, I run my own shop, so it's just me. Last year did 196 million in commercial loan paper total. This year, I haven't completely done the numbers through third quarter, but I know I was over 150. So I was very close to being on track to either do the same, if not maybe eclipse that, but again, I don't think I am.
Uh, probably start of October was the first time I personally saw some slowdown. And again, I also think that this is a time where people come to brokers more because you need more of a relationship with the bank, more of creative solutions to get deals done. And I think if you're a good broker, that's educated and knows their clientele base of bankers, um, you can get a deal done. I wouldn't say from contract to close or not close is Is that such of a big issue as me personally? I've had more so Lenders that will still do the deal like we may have picked our horse to go down the road with They may still do the deal, but they're changing their terms So I've had to stop pool deals recently
Slocomb Reed (36:06.544)
Kurt, do you, do you mean that they change their terms while underwriting the deal that changed them from the time you present it to the time they're ready to fund?
Kurt Weil (36:12.486)
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yes. And we've changed gears a few times with a few clients. I'm seeing that more prevalent than just straight denials. Again, I historically, I've never really had that problem. And those are the type of lenders I choose purposely not to work with those that had that reputation, but in the times where everything's changing every week and to some credit, some of these lenders don't even know what the higher ups in their banks want, and they're not conveying that down, what they want, what they don't want. So I would say more so than denials, it's more been a changing course, changing a lender midterm after, you know, we may get approval, but it's approval with conditions, or, you know, instead of a 25 year end, we're gonna do 20, or hey, instead of 25 down, we want 30 down, or know, hey, this isn't stabilized to do this project. We want a reserve account for the first year of P&I payments. Always throwing those things in there. Historically, that wasn't done. I'm seeing a more prevalent now than I am denials. And again, I attribute that more to probably my relationship with banks, whereas, hey, they'll start out, you know, maybe just to make me feel good, they'll start that conversation out with well, you know, if this wasn't from you, we would deny it. But this is what we can offer in consolation, you know, and change that a little bit. So I'm seeing that become more prevalent. I think that's more because of just the volatility in the market. We don't still know which way things are going to go. And banks are still, I think, figuring out what they're doing and not doing.
Slocomb Reed (37:58.136)
That makes a lot of sense. Kurt, are you ready for the best of our lightning round?
Kurt Weil (38:02.23)
Yes, sir.
Slocomb Reed (38:03.86)
What is the best ever book that you recently read?
Kurt Weil (38:09.146)
I, my favorite book is Rich Dad Poor Dad, I think because everybody I work with has read it, it's a great talking point. But most recently, I've been stuck on interviews of podcasts and a lot of the economic, you know, I like looking at these university professors, the ones like the one out of Duke that is the one through his 1986 thesis coined the yield curve, the inverted yield curve.
So just kind of brushing up on that, given their current input on market stuff, I think I've been a little more interested in them books lately.
Slocomb Reed (38:49.324)
For the record, best ever listeners, Kurt told me yesterday that he was gonna slide that into this interview somehow, and there you go, he found it through the best ever book. Ha ha.
Kurt Weil (38:59.947)
I think you have to because when there's a guy like that coming out on TV and he's telling you his thoughts and how things are with the market, someone like that, he's highly educated, highly respected and he knows the formulas, it makes a difference. I think he's worth following and listening to.
Slocomb Reed (39:20.492)
Kurt, what is your best ever way to give back?
Kurt Weil (39:25.014)
I like to give back, I think I said this last time I was on too, by coaching. I enjoy coaching, not in real estate investing, but more so, like I get back in my high school. I was a cleached athlete, so I like to go back with my coach that coached me and help him coach some of the other guys and see them develop. But real estate investing too, I enjoy going with these newer investors kind of out of my way of not just getting the loan, but helping teach them some of the little nuances that I consider coaching because I just enjoy it.
Slocomb Reed (40:02.152)
And Kurt, what is your best ever advice?
Kurt Weil (40:09.21)
I would say in a time where a lot of syndications and syndicated money really got or partnering up for money purposes has gotten very popular, if you're going to partner with someone, I think it's very important to, if you have expectations, outline those expectations up front of each individual partner. Because I've seen, not even over the long term, but even in short term, I've seen those partnerships, even personally ones that I've had, so I can say that's from personal experience. You may expecting a partner or someone to do something more than they are, but you never had the conversation of what you expected. And I think it's very important to kind of outline that upfront because everybody gets really excited about that deal, hey, we got the money, hey, we can do this. But they kind of forget about that whole, okay, well, who's going to do what and then someone expects someone to do something and they don't. And then it's a lot of back end frustration that builds up and partnerships die. And, you know, so my biggest thing is if you're ever going to pull money together and do a deal and just make sure you define responsibilities and expectations of every individual upfront.
Slocomb Reed (41:22.804)
Last question, where can people get in touch with you?
Kurt Weil (41:27.962)
I don't do a lot of social media. I don't do a lot of advertising at all. You know me, I'm word of mouth. So, I have LinkedIn. You can look at my LinkedIn page. Or from this, I'll have my information, my cell phone, or my email address. Those are typically how I ask people to get in touch.
Slocomb Reed (41:51.36)
Those links are in the show notes. Kurt, thank you. Best ever listeners. Thank you as well for tuning in. If you've gained value from this episode, please do subscribe to our show. Leave us a five star review and share this episode with a friend. You know, we can add value to through our conversation today. Thank you and have a best ever day.