Anthony Vicino is the managing partner at Invictus Capital, a vertically integrated syndicator focused on value-add, class B multifamily properties in the Minneapolis–Saint Paul metropolitan area. In this episode, Anthony shares how he and his team lead through the educational content they create, how his local reputation gives him a unique edge, and his advice for new investors looking to compete with him.
Anthony says being local gives him a unique edge that makes it difficult for out-of-towners to compete with him. In the early days, it was hard to get in the door with brokers, but once he and his team established a track record and proved their ability to close, they began to build strong relationships.
“It starts with the broker, but then if you’re intentional about how you maintain the relationship with the seller, generally they have more buildings to sell,” Anthony says. “That’s been our strategy, to play a long-term game with these sellers. Don’t look at it as a single transaction.”
Invictus Capital’s main mission is to lead with education. “Our goal is not just to get people to invest with us,” he says. “We want people to invest in these vehicles as much as possible.” They do this by trying to put out as much educational content as they can via their social media, YouTube channel, podcast, and recently published book, Passive Investing Made Simple. They strive to create content that applies to both new investors who are focused on strategies for making money and advanced investors who are more focused on strategies for keeping their money.
Anthony says their efforts to educate have paid off in ways they never imagined. When they published Passive Investing Made Simple, for example, they were simply planning on handing it out to people entering their sphere as a glorified business card. “What we discovered, though, is that the book just did so well on Amazon and it’s remained so high in the rankings that a lot of investors come to us specifically through that,” he says. “It’s been really interesting.”
When Anthony recently began training in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, the gap in skill level between him and the other students was evident. He realized he could only compensate for his lack of skill with hustle, which he advises new real estate investors to do as well.
“If you can’t out-technique them, you can out-work them,” he explains. “For just starting out right now, you’re not going to be able to out-technique me. But you probably can out-work me.” For example, a new investor with more time at their disposal might be able to beat him to the punch and get a deal. He also stresses, however, that it’s important to understand that there are no competitors in this space — only people you haven’t partnered with yet.
Potential Topic: Building a capital raising machine or how to build a vertically integrated private equity firm.
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TRANSCRIPT
Ash Patel: Hello, Best Ever Listeners. Welcome to the Best Real Estate Investing Advice Ever show. I'm Ash Patel, and I'm with today's guest, Anthony Vicino. Anthony is joining us from Minneapolis, Minnesota. He is the managing partner of Invictus Capital, which is a vertically-integrated syndicator focused on value-add Class B properties in the twin cities. They have over 40 million of assets under management. Anthony was a previous guest on episode 2519. So if you google Joe Fairless and Anthony Vicino, these episodes will show up. Anthony, thank you so much for joining us, and how are you today?
Anthony Vicino: I'm great. Thanks for having me back, Ash. It's good to be here, man.
Ash Patel: It's our pleasure. Anthony, before we get started, can you give the Best Ever listeners a little bit more about your background and what you're focused on now?
Anthony Vicino: Yeah. So high-level, we are a vertically-integrated private equity firm based out of the twin cities, so we buy multifamily assets between like 20 and 80 units at a time. That's our sweet spot. It gives us a nice competitive advantage. And what makes us a little bit weird in this space is that we don't really work with capital raisers. We don't really work with partners at all, so we kind of do everything that we can. So we have property management company in-house. We manage our assets. We don't do third-party, just our own. We raise capital to go and acquire these assets. And our whole thesis is if you take care of the residents, that takes care of the building, and it takes care of the investors. So that's just what we've been living by, and it's so far been working pretty well for us.
Ash Patel: Have you ever used capital raisers?
Anthony Vicino: We have, in the beginning. There's nothing against the capital raisers, at all. That can be a fantastic avenue to go. It was just, for us, we realized with our personalities, we're kind of control freaks and that we like to be ultimately accountable for everything that we do. So introducing other partners into the equation - sure, we could have scaled quicker; if we want to go far, you go together. That's one of the maxims that we believe in. But for us, it was just recognizing, "Hey, we don't really want to have other people in the equation, that ultimately we can't control their actions, can't control what they do or say." So we wanted to keep that in-house as much as we could.
Ash Patel: And out of curiosity, back in the day when you did use capital raisers, what percentage of the GP did you give up for that?
Anthony Vicino: So that's an interesting question. When we get into capital raising and how do we compensate for that, you've got to be super careful, right? Because unless they have some kind of brokerage licensure and you're a broker-dealer, you're going to get into this weedy area about how do you compensate. And this is one of the reasons we went away from using capital raisers. This is just understanding from an SEC compliance perspective it muddies the waters a bit. And so you have to find other ways to compensate in saying, okay, everybody is going to have an active role in the asset management, or maybe they're signing on the loan, or bring in a little bit of the earnest money. So they're taking an active component in it.
So what we would do is we would figure out, okay, your compensation is not tied to how much capital you bring into the deal, because that's now a no-no. So we'd tie it to saying, okay, here's the roles and responsibilities that everybody is going to fill on the team, and then everybody's responsibility is to go and raise capital. And so therefore, what people are actually making money for is over here, and not over here. And this is something that we had to walk through with our SEC attorney and make sure that we're staying on the right side of it, because it can be kind of tricky.
Ash Patel: Yeah, it is a great area, for sure. So how do you guys raise capital now?
Anthony Vicino: So we do it in-house. It's a we eat what we kill type of situation. So concurrently while we're out there operating our assets, we're also trying to find new deals, and we're also out there working with investors and raising awareness for the types of deals that we do and bringing them to the pipeline. So we kind of have three different pipelines that we have to keep an eye on. The operations, the deal flow, and the capital flow. The capital flow for us - we've been very blessed, it's been very robust, and in recent years there's more capital out there than there are deals. I think a lot of people are getting turned onto syndications, multifamily real estate commercially, so it's getting harder and harder to find really good deals at Pennsyl that make sense, but there's a lot of money out there in the system; especially in the last couple of years when people were saving a ton, and there's less stimulus going out... So there's a lot of capital trying to find yield right now. So we've been blessed on that side.
And our whole approach to raising capital has been lead with education. We wrote a book, published it last year and it was sitting on Amazon in the top 10 for the better part of the last year. We have a podcast that we put out multiple times per week... So we just try to put out as much education as we can, and as a consequence, people, if they come and invest with us, that's cool, but really our main objective is just to get as many people turned onto the fact that they can invest in these vehicles, whether it's with us or it's with other operators in different asset classes. We just want to see more people get off the stock market roller coaster and get onto main street.
Ash Patel: Alright, Anthony, you guys, like a lot of people, your bottleneck is deal flow. What do you say to those sponsors who have plenty of deals, but don't have the capital, and they say, "Yeah, it's easy for you to say. You've got a ton of money sitting out there waiting on you"?
Anthony Vicino: You hear it all the time, people say "If you have the deal, the money will follow." And I think the harsh truth is that that's just not true. [laughs] The money follows if people know who you are. That's the biggest issue for everybody in the space, in any business, is overcoming obscurity. In the early days, nobody knows who you are, and therefore they can't help you along your journey. And so even if you have a great deal, if nobody knows who you are, it's going to be very, very difficult to get in front of the people that can actually help you. So if you want to raise capital for your deals, you need to be thinking about it well before you ever actually need the capital. You need to be networking and creating those relationships with either the LPs and the investors directly that you want to work with, or with the capital raising partners who that's what they focus on. Because I think there's a lot of value in being hyper-specified in what you focus on. If that's just you're the deal flow person, focus on that and find your partners who are good at capital raising, if that's your unique skill; lean into it. For us, that's not quite our path. We're a little bit more broad and generalized. But I think in the early days, specifically when you're starting out, it's helpful to pick an avenue and say, "This is the thing. This is the role that I'm going to fill on the team and I'm going to fill it really well", and then find those people who can complement it.
Ash Patel: What does your team look like today?
Anthony Vicino: On the Invictus Capital side, it's me and my partner, Dan Kruger, and then underneath of us, we have our admin team, which is overseeing a lot of investor relations, onboarding and just documents, taxes, all that stuff. And then we have a marketing department, because again, when we're leading with education, that means putting out a lot of content, and that means having a pretty well-oiled machine on that side.
The actual operation side is Invictus management, and we have about 270 units under management currently, with another 220 coming online here in the next couple of months, so about 500 by the end of the year. And the way that really pans out is one operations manager, two property managers, a handful of leasing agents, and then a handful of maintenance and repair. And what we try to do is we try to group our assets geographically, so that we can get the synergies of scale as though they were one big complex. That way, our management team isn't having to run around. Because if you remember, we focus on 20 to 80-ish units. So it's not big enough to justify onsite 24/7 management. So our team has to be a little bit mobile and nimble.
Ash Patel: And would you recommend others focus on the 20 to 80-unit space?
Anthony Vicino: Honestly, yes. I think it's a forgotten middle. A lot of people when they first get into real estate, they do what I did. I went with a triplex. I house-hacked it and did an FHA loan. Nine months later, I refinanced it and we went bigger and bigger and bigger. But for most people, they get really scared when they start looking at 20 units and they're like, "Oh, that's a couple million dollars." That's a different level of commitment suddenly.
So a lot of people never successfully make that jump. And on the other side, when you're looking at 80 up to a hundred units, that's a little bit too small for a lot of the really big institutional players or really big operators. They're looking for more scale. And we hear a lot from people saying, "You've got to go big. You've got to go big." And what we've found is if you can realize some unique advantages of geography, I think that's really helpful. You can focus on that forgotten middle and there's a ton of money to be made there, because the people who own those buildings typically are your mom and pops. It's not BlackRock that owns that 32-unit building down the street. That's some guy and gal that bought that thing probably 25 years ago. They have really maybe low debt on this. It's not being operated great, and so there's opportunity to go in there and add value.
Ash Patel: And you can't just have one, because that 50 to 70... Man, that's a painful area to be in, right?
Anthony Vicino: I think so, depending on how you want to run it. And that's always understanding what's the desired outcome. Are you going to manage these things yourself? Are you going to build a property management company? Because I'll be completely transparent - we chose to go in-house property management, but that is not the right play for most people. It's trading one set of problems for a whole other set. When you go with third-party management, you can scale quickly. You rely on the systems and the processes of these experts, people who this is all they do. The consequence, you're not getting their best work though, because they're not owners. And so you don't end up controlling that end product as well as you could if you did it in-house. But if you do it in-house, you're going to scale slower. It's going to be harder, because you're going to have to deal with more people issues. And that's always the slow, cumbersome part, is hiring and training and retaining talent.
So understanding if you're going to build this thing in-house, you're going to need to hit scale. So you're going to need multiple of those 20, 30, 40, 50 unit buildings. Otherwise, you're going to be kind of bleeding money and bleeding time, and you can't afford to bring on really great talent and really great systems until you hit a certain threshold.
Ash Patel: Anthony, you mentioned you've got more capital than deals. What do you do to the investors that are not able to get in on your deals?
Anthony Vicino: That's a good question. So again, we lead with education, and our goal is not to get people just to invest with us. We want people to invest in these vehicles as much as possible. So here's the other thing, we're landlocked. We only focus in the twin cities, and that's not right for all of our investors. Some of them want exposure to other hot markets. If you want Phoenix, if you want Nashville, we're not going to be your operators. And so we want to be good stewards, not just of our deals and what we do, but we also want to be able to connect our investors with the groups that are going to serve them the best.
So we take a very active role in understanding what is our investors' goals, and then how do we help connect them? And we're not getting any kickbacks. We're not getting compensated by making recommendations to other operators or other groups. It's about trying to do the right thing for the investors, and saying, "We only do so many deals in the year. So we're not going to be able if you have X number of capital, probably not going to be able to service it all, but here are the groups that we know and like; because we've been in this industry for a long time, we have really good relationships and we've seen them and how these other groups operate." So we can say, "They get our seal of approval. I would go and operate with them if you have more capital."
Ash Patel: Because you're in the twin cities, I would imagine a lot of brokers bring you guys deals, because you must be well known out there.
Anthony Vicino: 100%. Yeah.
Ash Patel: Yeah. And is that how you find most of your deals?
Anthony Vicino: It's interesting. The big advantage of being local is that it's your backyard, everybody knows you. And you know the rules, you know the street by street level. It's your unique edge. It's awesome. It makes it very hard for people coming out of town to compete with us and get deals off-market, because we're probably the first call. So in the early days, it was hard to get in the door with the brokers. But then once you started to establish your track record and show that you have the ability to close and that you will do what you say and not just retrain at the 11th hour and cause a headache, once you start to build that relationship, what ends up happening is in any given market, there's usually a handful of players like owners that own the majority of the inventory. And if you can create strong relationships with those people, well, in the future, maybe you did a deal with them initially through a broker, but the next time they have a building to sell maybe they just give you a call directly, and now the broker is not being involved. Now you're getting true off-market.
And that's really been our MO. So we're acquiring a little over 200 units this year, across 11 different buildings. And that's all from a relationship with a seller who last year we bought something through him with a broker, and then six months later, he came back to us and said, "Hey, I have another building. Would you guys like to buy this thing?" And then through that transaction, he was like, "Actually, you know what? I want to sell my whole portfolio. I have 11 other buildings. Do you guys want it?" And we're like, "Perfect."
So it starts with the broker, but then if you're intentional about how you maintain the relationship with the seller, generally sellers have more buildings to sell. It's not usually just the one. Especially in this 20 to 80-ish unit space, they usually have more. So that's been our strategy, is play a long-term game with these sellers and maintain the relationship. Don't look at it as a single transaction.
Break: [00:14:37] to [00:16:24]
Ash Patel: Anthony, you started out small. What's the advice you would give somebody trying to compete with you? How can they score the next deal, or what gives them the highest competitive advantage to get the next deal?
Anthony Vicino: [laughs] It's interesting. This is going to be a weird tangent, but I started training Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu about seven months ago. And there's this gap between when you're new to something like your ability, your skill is very low compared to everybody else that's been doing it for a long time. And so the only thing that you have to compensate with is hustle. So if you can't out-technique them, you outwork them. And you're just starting out right now, you're not going to be able to out-technique me. But you probably can't outwork me at this point, because every deal needs three things - it needs time, experience, and capital. Right now I have experience and capital, but I don't always have as much time as we're out there operating these things and managing our relationships. And so you might be able to beat us to the punch and get a deal.
So if time is what you have on your side, really lean into it. Outwork us. And then if you find that deal, understand that there are no competitors in this space. It's just people that you haven't partnered with yet. And so it might be we are competing over this deal right now, but the next deal you come up with, you might say, "Hey, maybe this is a good fit to actually partner with these guys." If I bring you the deal, can you guys bring the operations and the capital? And we look at that and say, "Yeah, we might be able to do that."
Ash Patel: Great advice. I want to circle back to something you said earlier that I actually believe in. If you have the deal, the money will come. But having this conversation with you made me elaborate on that a little bit, and it's if you have the deal, you can get the money no matter what. You can sell the deal to you. You can get a finder's fee. But if you have the deal and you have the network and knowledge, you can get a lot more money for your deal.
Anthony Vicino: Yeah.
Ash Patel: But no matter what, like just having the deal, you can certainly get a finder's fee at the very least.
Anthony Vicino: If we know you though; you still have to be able to get in the room with us. A good case in point is we had somebody that brought us a deal two years ago, and it was a cold email. We'd never met this person before. And in the email, we looked at it, we were like, "That deal looks too good to be true. This must be spam." He had sent this message out to 20 different operators in the twin cities, and we were the only ones that responded, because we were like, "Well, worst case scenario, it's spam and we waste 15 minutes, but best case scenario, it's a unicorn deal." Turned out to be a unicorn deal. But I often think about that if we hadn't made that phone call, would somebody else have? And maybe they would've, maybe they wouldn't have, but it definitely helps, when you go to reach out to us, if you're saying, "Hey, I met you at the Best Ever show last January or February", whenever it was, "in Colorado." Hey, we sat down and talked and I'm like, "Oh, cool. I know this person." That's going to help get you through that. So don't just spend all your time looking for those deals. Also, be looking for the people who then you're going to help do something with that deal with.
Ash Patel: Yeah, knowledge and network is so important. I agree with you. Who on your team is responsible for capital raising?
Anthony Vicino: That's me. The way that we kind of split the company is every business has three legs of the stool. It has the acquisitions department, which is how do you get customers in the door? Then you have an operations department, which is how do you fulfill on the customer's needs, the product, and all that stuff. And then you have a finance department, which is how do we manage the accounting, the bookkeeping, cash flows, all that stuff. So the way that we think about this is I handle the acquisitions deal flow and capital flow. My partner, Dan, handles the operations, making sure everything is running smoothly. And then he also handles the finance, because I hate spending money. So anytime we have to pay a bill, I die inside, [laughs] even if it's $20.
Ash Patel: Anthony, what systems do you use to manage investors in capital, specifically, capital coming in and capital waiting for the next deal?
Anthony Vicino: Whenever we have a live deal, we're using AppFolio for investor management. And so that's our portal that investors can access and see all their K1's and documents and all that stuff. Handles the distributions. Very helpful. From a CRM perspective, we use Active Campaign, which when it comes to raising capital, that's really what this is - like, you need a customer relations system, and whether that's MailChimp, Active Campaign, cobbled together, Google Sheets... You have to have some way of retaining information and conversations that you've had with investors. Because at a certain point, you're going to have had so many conversations. If you don't have a way of tracking that and maintaining that, you're going to get lost really quickly.
But the other side of it too is one of the crazy revelations that we've had is when we first started raising capital, we thought that we were going to need thousands and thousands of investors to achieve our goals. And in reality, we only have about 100 active investors, and at any given moment, we can raise around $10 million, pretty casually. So that tells you, you don't need a ton of investors in your pool. You need to have a small, committed group of ravenous fans that want to continually invest with you. But I think when a lot of operators are first getting into the space, they think they need to have way more investors than they in reality do.
Ash Patel: All of the education content that you put out - is that for potential new investors, or how many of your existing investors consume that content?
Anthony Vicino: That's a good question. So we kind of bucket it into multiple categories. So if you think about the book that we wrote last year, Passive Investing Made Simple, that was really for people who are brand new to the space or people who are mildly familiar; they've been in this and they understand some of it, but they want to take their game to the next level, but they're not experts.
The podcast that we put out, we do four episodes per week, and those episodes are kind of split. Some of it is geared towards uber beginners, but we also try to bring in some content for the more advanced investors. So, okay, how do we deal with estate planning and tax management and liability and all these things that as you start to accrue more assets in life, you need to spend more time thinking about. Because in the early days, you spend all your time thinking about how do I make money, and then later in life, you have to spend more time learning about how to keep money. And those are two different skills, making money versus keeping money. So we try to address our content towards both of those sides.
Ash Patel: That's incredible. And I want the Best Ever listeners to pause for a second and listen to that, because I think so many people focused on acquiring investors, acquiring properties, but once they have the investors, what are you doing to continue to educate them, or continuing to add value to them? I love that you do that. That's incredible. Where do people find your content?
Anthony Vicino: Well, we put it on all the social media platforms. We have a fairly large [unintelligible 00:22:57.13] for us and we're in a very niche space, obviously, YouTube channel and the podcast. Those are pretty large organic traffic generators. And honestly, when we published the book last year, we were anticipating it just being something that we would give out to people that come into our sphere. It's kind of like a glorified business card in a lot of ways, and say, "Here, you can learn about what we do and how we do it." What we discovered though, is that book just did so well on Amazon and it's remained so high in the rankings there that a lot of investors come to us specifically through that. They had never heard of us. They just went to Amazon, they wanted to learn about investing, they found the book, read the book, and then next thing they know, they're listening to the podcast, now they're hopping on a call, now they're investing.
And it's been really interesting. The more content that we put out, the easier the investor onboarding calls become, to the point now where in the early days, a rewind two or three years ago, we would spend about 45 minutes to an hour on a call with an investor, because we'd have to walk them through who we are, what we do, all that. Now when we get on a call, it's 15 minutes of, "Okay, you know everything about us. You've gone and listened to all our content. You've consumed it all. What questions do you have for us?" So we can address it in a much more pinpointed way and we can be very quick and direct. And it's made the whole process so much easier.
Ash Patel: It sounds like it's just the obligatory call to make sure you're real.
Anthony Vicino: Exactly. Check the box of--
Ash Patel: Yeah, "Is there a real person there?"
Anthony Vicino: Yeah.
Ash Patel: That's awesome. What systems are you using to vertically integrate all your businesses?
Anthony Vicino: So I would say there's a handful of softwares that if you were to take away from us, we would be lost in the woods. So we use AppFolio for the investor management, but we also use it for property management. And the property management side, that software is way more robust. It's fantastic. From the capital and the management side, how we integrate it all is this weird combination of Google Drive, Dropbox and Notion. So Notion is kind of our main hub, where everything else is then directed from that; our central node that anybody coming into the company, all our systems and processes, everything's there. And then everything is stored in some combination of Google Drive and Dropbox. And it's worked really well. I've built multiple companies in the past, and that's more or less the structure that we use with the exception of Notion. That's relatively new in the last year for us.
Ash Patel: Anthony, what is your best real estate investing advice ever?
Anthony Vicino: Real estate is not a get-rich-quick game. It's get rich slowly, but surely. So make sure that you're playing it on the long horizon, because if you do, you're going to win. It's inevitable. You'll get to where you're trying to go, but just extend your time horizons. With real estate, this is not a get in-- and there are fix-and-flips, obviously. You can get in and fixe-and-flip a thing and get out next month. But if you want to make true wealth, it's not that. It's 10, 15, 20 years of accruing assets and just letting time do its thing. And if you do that long enough, you're going to do pretty well.
Ash Patel: Anthony, it's been a little while. Are you ready for the Best Ever Lightning Round?
Anthony Vicino: Yeah, hit me.
Ash Patel: Alright. What's the best ever book you recently read?
Anthony Vicino: Ooh, I read a lot, so this one is tricky for me. I just read Risk Game, which I think is a book that most people probably haven't heard about, especially if you're a real estate investor. This was new to me. Somebody recommended it. It's a story of Francis Greenberger and time equities. And if you ever wondered how somebody goes and builds a skyscraper in New York City, what kind of person that is, this is your book, right? [laughs] It's fascinating.
Ash Patel: Awesome. I'll write that down. Anthony, what's the best ever way you like to give back?
Anthony Vicino: What we've been working on this year is rental relief and figuring out how can we help our residents in our properties navigate those traumatic moments in life, where for whatever reason they fall a month behind in rent. Because generally, when evictions happen in a Class C, Class B space, it's because somebody's car got damaged, or somebody ended up in the hospital. If they could just float a month or two of rent, they would be okay. So we've been developing a program internally for our residents, so that for residents that are experiencing those kind of traumatic incidences, they don't get displaced from their home. We have a fund that they can float through that month or two and survive.
Ash Patel: Awesome. And Anthony, how can the Best Ever listeners reach out to you?
Anthony Vicino: You guys can reach out at invictusmultifamily.com. I mentioned the book a couple of times, and you can go pick it up on Amazon. It's Passive Investing Made Simple. Or if you want to free copy of the book, here's what you got to do. You just go and you leave a review for this podcast. Go to iTunes or wherever you'll be listening to this thing, leave a review and then shoot me an email, anthony@invictusmultifamily.com and say, "Hey, I left a review for that podcast with Ash", and then I'll send you a free copy of the book. That's all you got to do.
Ash Patel: Anthony, what do they search for to find your YouTube videos?
Anthony Vicino: Go to Multifamily Investing Made Simple, and that's the name of the podcast as well.
Ash Patel: Okay. Awesome. Perfect. Anthony, again, thank you for being a return guest. The theme for today that would solve so many problems for so many people, lead by education. It's amazing just how many challenges you can overcome by just giving away value to everybody around you. And you've built a great company by doing that. So thank you again.
Anthony Vicino: Thank you. I really appreciate it, Ash. We'll circle back next year.
Ash Patel: Let's do it for sure.
Outro: [00:28:08] to [00:28:21]
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