Shane Thomas is the co-founder and managing partner at Catalyst Equity Partners, which specializes in multifamily real estate investing and repositioning well-located assets. In this episode, Shane shares communication tactics to keep investors primed for potential opportunities when deal flow is down, how he is diversifying with other asset classes while remaining focused on multifamily, and what he would have done differently to scale faster.
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TRANSCRIPT
Ash Patel: Hello, Best Ever listeners. Welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I'm Ash Patel and I'm with today's guest, Shane Thomas. Shane is joining us from Houston, Texas. He is the co-founder and Managing Partner of Catalyst Equity Partners. They specialize in multifamily real estate and repositioning well-located assets. Shane's portfolio consists of nine properties with 1900 units, totaling $300 million of assets under management. Shane, thank you for joining us, and how are you today?
Shane Thomas: Hey, I'm glad to be here, Ash. Thanks for having me. Doing well.
Ash Patel: It's our pleasure. Before we get started, can you give the Best Ever listeners a little bit more about your background and what you're focused on now?
Shane Thomas: Yeah, thanks for that intro. Like you said, based in Houston, Texas. We've been doing multifamily for about seven years now. Focused on the value-add space, anywhere from Class C to Class A assets. I started off my career as a CPA in management consulting, and then I started investing in real estate in 2010. I was mostly in single family before pivoting to multifamily. We've got a team of seven full-time folks. We have construction management in-house. So multifamily is our bread and butter. We do construction for third parties as well, so we started that business service, and then I'm a passive investor in several deals, multifamily and non multifamily, some hotels and some other commercial real estate.
Ash Patel: Man, that's a lot to cover. Let's get started. The most striking thing about what you said was that you manage construction for other people. So my question to you is, what do you want to be when you grow up, a syndicator, or a construction company?
Shane Thomas: The way we look at it is we want to be a real estate company that has multiple service offerings. I think at the end of the day, our focus is on acquisitions and asset management. That's our bread and butter. We enjoy construction, and we were doing construction management on our own deals for several years, then we hired someone that is an expert in that field to do it for our own properties in-house the last couple of years. And then we started getting some requests to do it, from peers and whatnot. I'm of the mindset that we're going to hire to build that vertical of our business, so that it can eventually run on its own, but the core of our business is going to be multifamily or real estate acquisitions and asset management.
Ash Patel: I would imagine you get some economies of scale by growing that construction business as well.
Shane Thomas: Yeah, absolutely. I think it came down to a) we wanted control and the ability to manage our costs effectively, and speed. I think those were the things that we just felt like when we were using GCs when we started five, six years ago, the work would eventually get done, but oftentimes not on time and on budget, and that's a problem, especially when most of our deals have been heavier value-adds where we've got draws with the lender, timelines etc. So I think it provides a lot of control, and our philosophy is to try to do it the McDonald's way - every unit's the same, where we've got two different versions, and try to source the materials in bulk. We've tested it a lot internally, and now we're able to offer some services to third parties. And again, we're sticking within our wheelhouse. We're doing multifamily value-add, and that's what we're going to focus on, at least in the beginning.
Ash Patel: Shane, is this a slippery slope? Will you start property-managing for other syndicators as well?
Shane Thomas: That's a great question. We don't have property management vertically integrated just yet. I think we're at the scale right now with close to 2000 units that it is a question, and a legit one. It's something that I don't see in the immediate short-term, but long-term, as we grow our portfolio, it's something that we may consider. And again, I think we would take the same approach that we did with construction; we would do it as if there's no third party services yet. We're going to do it for ourselves, figure it out, basically make the mistakes and get the lessons learn internally before we ever think about doing anything for third parties.
Ash Patel: Got it. What's your bottleneck currently? Is it deals, capital?
Shane Thomas: That's a great question. I think if it was a year ago, I would say there was plenty of deals. Now it seems like both, and we're at that point in the market right now where there's obviously very little deal flow in general, relatively speaking, and it's hard to say if capital is an issue. I think from anecdotal points, I'm hearing that it's hard to raise money, and I definitely can understand that, and I think maybe our deal sizes may need to be a little bit smaller going forward... But I think right now it's twofold - lack of deals, and I think there's a lot more uncertainty. So we've kind of built our business stairsteps - did a small deal, raised some money, and then we've grown. Our last two deals were our biggest ever, and we got them done, but I think we're at a time in the market where commercial real estate isn't getting the best press. I think there's a lot of questions, and valid ones, and I think it's an opportunity for those that have experience to outshine. Not that we've been doing it for decades, but the way that we've built our companies that we are going to be doing this for decades in the future. So we've always put long-term results over anything short-term.
But yeah, our biggest bottleneck right now is that we're doing, I think, more work than we've ever done in the last five to six years, and very little to show for it. So we're starting to see some opportunities, some cracks, and hopefully we'll be able to get a deal, and then answer that question once we go through that process a little better.
Ash Patel: Yeah, that's a grim picture you painted, and you're right about the headlines. Every day in the news it's always commercial real estate, defaulting on loans, special servicing, office buildings going dark... And investor sentiment is all over the board. What are you doing to cultivate your investors so that when you do have that deal, they're ready to pounce?
Shane Thomas: Yeah, I think that's the great question... And I'd like to say that we're doing something different than we were the last six, seven years, but the quite honest answer is that we're just doing a lot of the same, which is continuing to communicate, getting in front of these questions... So we've always done yearly webinars on all my deals; we give out consistent monthly reports. The first year of acquisition we do a six month takeover webinar, and then every year we do a yearly webinar. And before it was more, "Hey, this is the state of your deal", and now we're really overlaying that with, "Here's the state of the market." We understand that a lot of our investors are in several deals, and not all of them are going perfectly... But this is the state of the market, this is the reality, this is how we're positioning ourselves... So we're just doubling down on that, and really trying to get in front. So we send out regular newsletters, we give a market update where "This is high-level what the market is", we give our portfolio update... And what I try to educate folks is that at the end of the day, yes, a lot of this data that you see in the press is on a national level, but you can't just paint an industry with one brush. So I think I've been able to show that for the most part with our portfolio performance and how we're doing things asset management-wise, and whatnot.
So it's really -- I started in the business on the multifamily side as a passive investor, invested in several deals, and one of my biggest pet peeves was some folks just didn't communicate. So our motto at our company is that if people hear too much from us, that's okay. We'd rather over-communicate than under-communicate. And we're consistent, and we've let folks know that "Hey, deal flow's a little bit lower now", but right now we're seeing a lot better pricing than we've seen in the last couple of years. We've done informal surveys to get a gauge of where investors are at. So just continue to communicate, make sure that folks know that we're still looking for deals, and we're still asset managing deals.
Ash Patel: Shane, how often do you communicate with investors, and then your potential investors?
Shane Thomas: I would say our current investors get an email from us once a month. We just got off our financials calls this morning at the end of the month, with an overview summary. So every month our current investors get an email update, and like I said, we do the webinars mid-year and yearly. And then our prospective investors - we send out a newsletter, which is bi-monthly. So those are generally the touchpoints. And then obviously, if you're a brand new investor, we have our process to have a call with them and whatnot. But if you're in our database, you get an email from us every two months. And we're kind of tweaking the process; if we need to communicate more, we will, and working through some things. But our current investors every month get a touchpoint from us.
Ash Patel: Yeah, I like that, every two months. I've had to unsubscribe from people that sent out daily newsletters. That's a rough thing. It's a long newsletter, too.
Shane Thomas: Just too much, yeah.
Ash Patel: You mentioned you're seeing better pricing. Is that relative to interest rates? I get it, the prices are down. But is that really due to the interest rates being up?
Shane Thomas: Yeah, I think it's -- I'm not gonna say a one for one correlation. I mean, I think if that was the case, pricing would have to come down a lot. But just relative to the peak, end of '21 or early 2022, the prices are down, because interest rates are up significantly... And it's interesting, right? ...when prices were going up, there was just so many people wanting to buy, and interest rates were low, and it was enabling that. And it's just interesting, where right now I'm seeing pricing anywhere from 10% to some cases 25%, and there's not that many people getting too excited, because it's hard to make these leveraged deals work.
I'm starting to see what feels like a plateau in terms of cap rates expanding on more of the class A stuff. It feels like we've got to a level where it feels relatively sticky. But I think on some of the older vintage stuff, there's a little bit room to go, in my opinion. And quite frankly, it seems like it's going back to fundamentals of finance and real estate. People are starting to bake in "Hey, there needs to be a risk premium for like a 1960s or '70s deal, versus something that was put in the ground 10 years ago." And I think that's slowly starting to reflect in the marketplace. Whereas 24 months ago, you were getting the same yield on totally different risk assets.
So I'm excited about the opportunity. I think it is definitely challenging, given where rates are, and where leverage is. Fortunately, on the multifamily side we've got Fannie and Freddie, the agencies, so there is a lender; I think you've just got to be creative on how to buy these deals. And the one thing we know, that everyone knows, is that you can't change the price you pay, but you can always change your financing. So I think that's where you're really looking for a basis. And I think we're also using it as an opportunity to - not to re-educate, but to set investor expectations that the return profile may be a little different than it was 24 months ago, or 48 months ago and whatnot, where it went from a lot of cash flow and not a whole lot of upside, to a lot of more upside, a little bit of cash flow... And maybe the risk profile is different for the next 24 months. Maybe we're buying at a really discount to replacement cost, and cash flow is minimal to none in the next 18 to 24 months, but the rent growth and potential is great on the backend.
So I think I've always been a proponent of being in the game. I think we were in three best and finals in the last two to three weeks. It's like any sport, right? I mean, you can't really play unless you're in it. So that's what we're doing. And I legitly think we're working harder than we've worked in the last five years.
Ash Patel: Yeah. So we don't know what the new normal is, and I love your perspective on that. Are you concerned that the same stupid money that was winning on these deals against you is still there? We're all waiting for prices to come down. And sellers may not feel a whole lot of pain yet, but there's still those new operators, those inexperienced operators, or those operators that just have an abundance of capital, willing to throw excess money at deals for low to no returns. Is that a concern of yours?
Shane Thomas: I would say at this point in time, no. It feels like it's almost like a frozen market, in some respects. But we've spent some time this year spreading our wings a little bit, talking to private equity and family offices and whatnot, and it feels like there is a lot of capital. So when and if rates do come down at some point in time, I do think there's going to be a lot of capital clamoring for deals. My gut tells me that this ride, the last little while, with these rates going up and really impacting people, I feel like it's going to be ingrained in a lot of people's memories, at least for the next little short-term. And I would expect folks to quite frankly put a risk premium on assets.
So there's going to be a lot of capital, but I think that capital is really going to look for a flight to safety, and it's not going to be, for a lack of a better word, dumb as it was 24 months ago, where you go buy a C Class deal at a 3.2 cap. I don't think we're going to see that in at least the next little while. So but I do think there's a lot of capital, and just based on data that I've read, and just talking to folks.
And it's interesting, right? You asked the question, "When are people going to start coming in?" I think that's the million dollar question, that no one knows. Even if you talk to some of the bigger shops, they're almost like waiting for some first-mover to show, a Blackstone or a KKR to start, and then they'll all get in. But I think my personal opinion feels like things got slow probably a year ago from now, and I think we're closer to where things are going to start ramping up in terms of deals. I think a) we're nearing the end of the Fed tightening cycle, and b) there's gonna be some deals that are holding on, whether they're floating rate debt or whatnot, that are going to need to transact. So I feel like we're going to come out of the stalemate shortly.
Ash Patel: Shane, I'm gonna push back on you a little bit... And I've got this theory, that it's predominantly real estate people and Wall Street people that think interest rates are coming down soon. You mentioned you think the Fed is at the end of tightening. Why do you think that?
Shane Thomas: I think it's clear by their comments that yes, there may be one or two more, but I think they made it clear that we're nearing the end. What I'd like to clarify is I don't think rates are coming down quickly. But I think the challenge that as a buyer and as a seller over the last 12 months is that - I think you mentioned that there's no new norm right now. So I think what's going to help is once we get to a place where "Okay, we kind of know rates are gonna be here", then the new rules of the game will be written, and then I think you'll start seeing some activity happening. But I would say -- I do think rates will eventually come down, but I think a lot of folks are expecting early 2024, but I think we're in this climate for a while... Just based on even when folks are offering on deals - we had a couple of deals that we sold and whatnot; it was just like, "Hey, we're going to wait till the next Fed meeting to decide on what we're going to offer." I think that reality is going to change in the next three to four months.
Break: [00:17:22.19]
Ash Patel: Best Ever listeners, I'm sure you know this, but these are just our opinions; no one has a clue of what's really going to happen. But when somebody tells you that rates will start coming down in Q4 of 2023, I would take that with some skepticism. How do you know that? So I'm not holding you to it, by any means, I just wanted to get your opinion. And thank you for that. You mentioned earlier, Shane, about pivoting maybe into smaller deals. What are you doing? Because it seems like you've got a very specific niche. You buy properties that are maybe 200 to 300 units apiece.
Shane Thomas: Yeah, right. 200, yup.
Ash Patel: Yeah. What are you doing to think outside the box, pivot, maybe different assets classes, size of deals... When you're brainstorming, what are you looking at?
Ash Patel: I think we're focused on multifamily, because I think there's going to be opportunity, and that's what we're good at. That said, I've started investing in hotels as an LP, just to give an example. So just from more of a cash flow perspective. So just like when I started in multifamily on the LP side, I did it from a passive investor standpoint, learned, and then understood the nuances, and then decided to go on the GP side. And that's the same approach. So we're kind of looking at different asset classes, just to kind of get our feet wet, and more complement what we can offer on the multifamily side.
I think what I don't want to do is be a jack of all trades. I really do believe that at this stage in our business and our career we've built a good track record in multifamily, and we're gonna start seeing deal flow because of our track record and reputation for that... But we also don't want to be a one trick pony. So it's a fine balance, because as you know, there's a lot of shiny objects out there and whatnot. So we're being very specific on what we focus on.
So hotels is one area that, again, totally different risk profile than multifamily, and I'm working with operators in that space that have been doing it for a long time. We're also looking at - oftentimes we didn't want to do some of these smaller deals, because you didn't get the economies of scale or whatnot... But I think sub-100 units - there could be some opportunity in that area that we previously wouldn't look at, but now we've got enough of a portfolio in Dallas and Houston that we can bolt on an 80-unit; we've got the construction expertise in-house, so we've developed as a company where we're able to do more... And then there's a few other asset classes. We've done a little bit of land stuff, build-to-rent, single family... There's a few things; we got some balls in the air, if you will...
Ash Patel: Hold on, I've gotta push back on a lot of things here. I love what you said, you're going to be slumming into the sub-100-unit... But great, why not look at different things, right? You don't want to be a jack of all trades, but you're looking at build the rent; you're looking at all these other asset classes, right? So I feel a little bit of a struggle in deciding whether to stay the course, or to really pivot. And I totally get that. I do want to ask, what are the returns? What's the attraction to the hotel investments?
Shane Thomas: For me, it's really cashflow. We're buying hotels - these are limited service hotels; we buy close to a 10 cap, with six and a half, seven percent interest rates, and so you got positive leverage there... We're looking at year one cash on cash returns with 7%, 8%. We're looking at at least - again, projected returns, 2.5, 2.75 equity multiple over five years, where generally multifamily is on the 2 side... And I think that limited service - there's just an opportunity in that space. We're not looking at these flagship type hotels. So I just think from a risk/reward standpoint. And again, I'm newer into it, but the cash flow out of the gate is much better than what we're getting in multifamily. So that's really what attracted me to it. So I think there's definitely higher risk, but I think it's priced in, given that we're buying at 400 to 500 basis points higher cap rate than multifamily.
Ash Patel: Understood. And in these proformas, do they take into account the PIP or the property improvement plan?
Shane Thomas: Yes.
Ash Patel: And the expenses incurred with that?
Shane Thomas: Yup.
Ash Patel: Okay. And just for the Best Ever listeners, these are the thorns of owning a hotel. It's where the parent company will come in and make you restriped the parking lot, change the doorknobs, change the toilets, changed the mirrors, changed the artwork to other generic artwork, just to be consistent... And often you're buying these from a subsidiary of that parent company. So they're double-dipping. It's just a massive expense that certainly needs to be considered. Now, I'm going to push back a little bit more. Why not look at retail, industrial, potentially office?
Shane Thomas: It's a good question. I stayed at hotels and BTR because those are the ones that we've made a little bit more progress in. Going back to my earlier comment, I think there's only so much you can do. So we just said, "Hey, we'll focus on these things, learn as much as we can." Industrial, I've always viewed it positively, but I wouldn't know where to start, to be honest with you, at this stage. So it's just balancing that jack of all trades/don't get distracted, versus we've got our main focus and then there's a few other pet projects that we're working on, but we don't want 100 pet projects and no focus. So that's really just a function of time. We had relationships in hotels, and we have relationships in BTR; so there's more information that we can glean, versus industrial, where it would be just a steeper slope.
Ash Patel: Yeah. And I'm very biased, because I am a non-residential commercial investor. So I buy retail office, industrial, medical, land development... So that was my reason for pushing back. You've had an incredible run on, where you've got $300 million of assets under management. What's one thing that you look back and you wish you did differently, that would have helped you scale faster?
Shane Thomas: That's a great question. I think hiring folks sooner is one thing that I think when we were starting the company, me and my partner pretty much did everything under the sun. And I think at this stage, we try to hire ahead. So we've learned that over the last four or five years. But I think the first two, three years - at that time, I still had a full-time job, and trying to figure this out, evenings and weekends and whatnot, and just not surrounding ourselves with the folks that were experienced in building businesses and whatnot... Whereas now our whole ecosystem has changed. But I think that's really one thing I would change, is hire and delegate tasks sooner. We've always been process-oriented and whatnot, and try to document everything... But looking back, I think the last two to three years, we've hired a good amount, but our first two, three years, I think if we hired a few more folks, we would have been able to do a little bit more.
Ash Patel: Very valuable advice. Did you struggle on your first hire?
Shane Thomas: Yeah, hiring is not easy at all. I think in some ways we still struggle. But yeah, the first hire that at least we made was really an admin. We went through multiple iterations, we tried VA, we tried a couple of different VAs and whatnot... And pros and cons; we still use a VA on certain things... But yeah, it's been a lot of trial and error. And I think I've done a lot of interviewing my past life, but it's a little different on this side. I think referrals go a long way, and so now we've really tried to socialize it within our communities and our network... But our company has its own personality and culture, and we wanna make sure that person can fit the culture. I think historically I was, just [unintelligible 00:26:54.20] hustle, and work hard -- "I can mold this person into who I need it to be." And I think the more and more that I've gained experience, I love that drive and hustle, but I think I want to be hiring folks that are pretty much experts in what we're trying to get them to do, and I think that mindset changed last year has really helped, because we've struggled with the person that's wanting to do it, but just doesn't have the capability. So I think that's another lesson learned that I would have changed.
Ash Patel: Yeah, that's important. Obviously, no one's gonna work as hard as you. So you're not gonna be able to find a you. It's a hard lesson for a lot of people... But thanks for sharing that, because anybody that's out there that's inundated, and you're on the fence if you should hire somebody or not, if you have the capability and the funding to hire somebody, by all means, stop asking that question. If you have to ask it, the answer is yes. Especially your first hire. And then it becomes like a drug. Oh my god, I can offload stuff to this other human, and it clears out my plate a little bit. And just keep repeating that, right?
If you're inundated, and you don't have the funding to hire somebody, you've got to question, are you spinning your wheels in the right direction? Because you shouldn't be that inundated without having money coming in to pay somebody else to offload that. What's the biggest mistake that you've made in your entire real estate career?
Shane Thomas: Another good question. There are several, and I think fortunately I learned a lot of them a long time ago, and even in my single family days. But I think the biggest mistake relative to what we do now is in the beginning undercapitalizing deals. You don't know what you don't know in the beginning, but I remember our first deal that we bought, our rehab budget was probably 50% or 60% of what it should be. At that time you're trying to balance returns versus how much improvements you need to do, and stuff like that... And what a lot of people just gloss over in these industries - some of these buildings are 50, 60, 70 years old, and a lot of the stuff is below the line. And if you have a five-year business plan, you really need to have a five-year capital plan, not a two-year value-add plan.
So I think those lessons we learned on our first deal, and I harped on it on every single deal afterwards. So we always over-capitalize our deals. And quite frankly, Ash, I thought I did a great job, and some of our deals were on year five or six of our hold, and we're like, "Wow, we thought we over-capitalized our deal", but six years later, 1960s property stuff happened. Unfortunately, we refinanced one of them, so we were able to recap the deal and put some money...But I think that's one of the biggest lessons I've learned.
Ash Patel: What's the solution? When you've run out of rental money in a year or so into your project, do you go back to investors and say, "Hey, guys, we need more money"? Do you liquidate investors?
Shane Thomas: Fortunately, we've never went back to investors for any money whatsoever. So we've just got to manage our distributions as one lever. We're managing cash flow versus operating needs, and I think we've done a good job of that... And we've just gotta tighten the screws. And what we do is - like I said, I'm a former CPA, but these are capital-intensive businesses, and we love our property managers... But they're doing their accounting just to get it done, close the books and send you the financials, and a lot of folks just don't have the experience to understand where's all the ins and outs. This is tens of hundreds of thousands of dollars going back and forth, and draws, and whatnot...
I have a fractional CFO that reviews our books across our entire portfolio; we spend a day with him a month, and we review everything. Cash in and out, our cash needs... And we literally go through and say, "Okay, we're gonna hold this deal for another 36 months. We know we've got X sources of cash, but we need 300k of CapEx to hold this deal for three years; reserve that. This is what's available."
So it's really managing cash, understanding your properties, assessing your properties... I think everyone has city inspections and whatnot, but as an owner, and fortunately now that we've got construction in-house, we go and we do semiannual inspections of all our buildings. Because the city looks at it through their lens, but we've got to look at it from a "How are we going to keep this asset, give it longevity?" And then the other option is to refinance. I think that gives you flexibility. So if we refinance, we're definitely using that as an opportunity to recap the deal.
Ash Patel: Knowing what you know now, would you have scaled at the same rate? Or would you have slowed down, or gone faster?
Shane Thomas: Great question. I think the rate that we went was a good rate. I know guys that started three years after us, that have 3x-ed the number of units, and burnin' and turnin' and whatnot... And we've done nine deals in six years, and we've always been in the game, tweaking our formula... Sure, could we have gone faster? But I think one of the things I said in the beginning is we've never looked at this as a sprint. I'm 38 years old, and I plan to do this for the next three decades, because I love it, and we try to make sure that we make long-term decisions. So there's always going to be deals, and I'm pretty happy. I think the hiring and whatnot - those are different things. But in terms of our pace, I feel good. We could have done it faster, sure, but...
Ash Patel: You're always going to have growing pains, right?
Shane Thomas: Yeah.
Ash Patel: Shane, what is your best real estate investing advice ever?
Shane Thomas: You've got to take action, and surround yourself with folks. I know it's cliche, but I did not have a network or ecosystem 10 years ago. And it was a slow, slow grind, trying to figure it out yourself. Surround yourself with those folks, and you'll see that you'll get results faster. And you've got to start; whether that means you start with one single family, or a duplex or whatnot, get started. And then from there, you just iterate and grow. So yeah, not rocket science at the end of the day, but I think this business, you've got to really just surround yourself with the right folks.
Ash Patel: Shane, are you ready for the Best Ever Lightning Round?
Shane Thomas: Sure.
Ash Patel: Alright, what's the Best Ever book you've recently read?
Shane Thomas: So I'm actually just finishing up "King of Capital." Blackstone, Steve Schwarzman's book. I think it's very fitting for where we are right now. He walks us through Blackstone from inception in the '80s, to the rise and the fall... And it's more of a private equity, kind of LBO, leveraged buyout type of book, but a lot of parallels to real estate, and the credit crunch... So I thought it was fascinating just to see their rise. And obviously, they're a household name now.
Ash Patel: Shane, what's the Best Ever way you like to give back?
Shane Thomas: We give back our time via various volunteering work in our community here locally, but I think the one that I'm most proud of is that there's a charity that we donate to in South India for underprivileged kids. So my wife and I, we started that before we got married, and we've been a regular contributor to that. So underprivileged kids, kids' education is stuff that's near and dear to our heart.
Ash Patel: And Shane, how can the Best Ever listeners reach out to you?
Shane Thomas: I'm available on LinkedIn, Shane Thomas, you should be able to find me. Our website is CatEquity.com. And you could send me an email at Shane [at] catequity.com and I would be happy to connect with anybody.
Ash Patel: Yeah, Shane, thank you for your time today. I wanted to get more into your rise and how you got started, but we had a phenomenal conversation. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the current market. Thoughts about pivoting, investor sentiment, all of that. So thank you so much for your time.
Shane Thomas: Appreciate it. Thanks for the opportunity.
Ash Patel: Best Ever listeners, thank you for joining us. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a five-star review. Share this podcast with someone you think could benefit from it. Also, follow, subscribe and have a Best Ever day.
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Oral Disclaimer
The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are provided for informational purposes only, and should not be construed as an offer to buy or sell any securities or to make or consider any investment or course of action. For more information, go to www.bestevershow.com.