Dive deep into Brian Shafer's journey navigating the commercial real estate world. Brian discusses multifamily development economics, the potential of flex spaces, and how his early exposure to construction molded his investing career.
Key Takeaways:
- Cost Efficiency: Building multifamily efficiently could cost around $200 per square foot, which is almost half of some high-end developments.
- Potential of Flex Spaces: With almost the same rent as multifamily but less than half the build cost, flex spaces present a lucrative opportunity. Consider structures like 16-foot ceilings and 14-foot bay doors to optimize rent.
- Seeking Guidance: Both Brian and Ash stress the importance of seeking advice and understanding business models thoroughly before diving in. Recognize that there are resources available and don't hesitate to ask for help.
Brian Shafer | Real Estate Background
- Prosper Real Estate Investments
- Portfolio:
- Multifamily, commercial, industrial, SFR Contracts
- Based in: Iowa
- Say hi to him at:
- Best Ever Book: A Random Walk Down Wallstreet by Burton Malkiel
- Greatest Lesson: Ask for help. Consult others with more experience to look over your deals and offer insight into things you may have missed.
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Transcript
Ash Patel:
Best Ever listeners, welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I'm your host, Ash Patel.
Today's episode is brought to you by Presario Ventures, a private equity real estate firm based in the booming Austin, Texas market. To learn how you can invest in the future of Texas with Presario Ventures, please visit info.presarioventures.com forward slash best ever or click on the show notes below.
Today's guest, Brian Shafer. Brian is joining us from Philo, Illinois. He is a real estate investor and developer. Prosper real estate investments Brian's portfolio consists of multifamily Industrial and single-family rental contracts Brian. Thank you for joining us. And how are you today?
Brian Shafer:
Thanks, Ash. I'm doing well happy to be on the show and hopefully I can provide some good knowledge to the audience.
Ash Patel:
Well Brian, it's our pleasure to have you if you would can you give the best-ever listeners a little bit more about your background and what you're focused on now?
Brian Shafer:
Yeah, so a little bit about me and how I got started. Growing up, I was brought up in a family where my dad taught us at a very young age to work with our hands, using hand tools. If you wanted a toolbox, we didn't go to the store and buy a toolbox. We had to build our own and that was probably around the age of, I'd say, four or five years old. So today you'd probably get locked up for letting your kids use the kind of tools we were using at such a young age, but it did just give us kind of a talent that we were able to take forward with us for the rest of our lives. So.
After that, in late high school and the first probably eight years, 10 years out of high school, I went to work for my brother, Brett. He owned a construction company. We did a lot of remodels. Grew ended up building several homes. The development that I'm in here and the house that I'm in, we built these right around 2008, nine and 10, I think were our busiest moment while the rest of the world was crashing. I think it was our best years that we had. So.
I've always had the builder's knowledge and I've had that, I guess, interest, always buried in there somewhere. It's hard on your body. So I wanted to maybe approach it from a different angle at some point. But from there, I decided I was really interested in sports nutrition. To make a longer story short here, I started that store with a good friend of mine from my hometown, we went to about 21 banks over three years, got turned down by every single one of them.
And I think the last bank that turned us down a couple of times ended up financing that store for us. Life was good. The store was a little ahead of its time, so it didn't go like planned. So we got our noses blooded pretty hard on that. Looking back, it was a blessing because it really taught us a lot about business. So after that happened, I ended up taking a job with a large chemical corporation. I was a technician there. Great company. It was a blessing looking back at it and it helped me get my start in real estate but it just wasn't for me. So I struggled with that, but it was a sacrifice that I had to make for, I was hoping maybe four years, but I ended up having to go seven to get this kind of started. So from there, that's when I got back into the real estate business.
Ash Patel:
Brian, I'm curious, when everybody else was burning in 2008, why were you successful?
Brian Shafer:
To correct your introduction here, Prosper Real Estate is based out of Filo, Illinois, because that's one of the partners that I became very good friends with. And met at some real estate conferences back in 2015 or 2016. I think we went to our first real estate conference. We ended up meeting him and, and one after that, the team that I have now consists of six of us, two partners out in LA, two in Filo, Illinois, and I'm in Iowa now we're all like family from these conferences. So that's where the Filo came from, but I'm in Iowa and the reason that we did so well, I think during the 2008 GFC was Iowa is a very linear market. We don't have the boom and bust like your coastal regions and some of your popular States that may be popular within the time that maybe you're going through like a pandemic. A lot of people fled from California to Arizona, Texas, the Carolinas, Georgia, Florida, and in Iowa, you just have this very steady linear. Incline. Does it mean that you won't have some specific market drops here and there on some homes in certain markets in this area. But overall, people when they come to Iowa, they come here because of job stability, stable growth. It's a safe place to live. It's affordable and there's always great jobs here in the Midwest. Plenty of them.
Ash Patel:
Interesting. And then what are single family rental contracts?
Brian Shafer:
That's something I kind of stumbled upon by accident. When I was working on building the house here that I'm in right now, it took about four years because my brother was helping me with it, but I did a lot of the finish work. And alongside that, I was working swing shift for the seven years that I worked for that chemical company. So for about seven years, I slept roughly four hours in between every shift. Build the house I'd work on real estate and so on.
Ash Patel:
Brian, you've got multifamily properties. How did you get started in that?
Brian Shafer:
So the multifamily properties came along when we just decided that there was something better to what I was doing at the current job that I had at this chemical company.
I was kind of at this fork in the road where I knew I wasn't happy. I had to take a different path. So on this long drive home that I had, I thought, what is it that I'm good at? Construction. I understand how to build structures. And I just understood a little bit about real estate, not the numbers per se. So on this long drive home, I had never listened to a podcast in my life. I looked one up, one popped up and I had about five and a half hours to listen to.
So I listened to those, it was about commercial multifamily real estate investing. And by the time I made that drive home, I knew without a doubt, 1000% that I was going to be a multifamily real estate investor. So fast forward about a year and my fiance had told me one night, Hey, I got you a early surprise for Christmas or something like that. And it was tickets to this multifamily investment conference in Chicago. We went to that conference and we just really never looked back. I think we went to four more right after that in a row every six months. And the fire just kept building and building. And we met some great partners that were just friends at a Denver bootcamp. And we started doing a weekly call, just accountability call. And that turned into, Hey, should we become partners? We all bring a different strength to the table. What do you guys think about that? That was our LA partner that brought that up. And it was kind of an aha moment where we would be crazy not to do it. So I was just getting ready to sign up for a mentorship program. And our first time together as an actual partnership was in Baltimore, I think of 2017 or 2018. And that's when we formed our company and our roles and responsibilities and decided that we were going to go after multifamily real estate investing.
Ash Patel:
What was your first property?
Brian Shafer:
Our first property was a 42 unit property down near Filo, Illinois. Champaign, Illinois is what people are going to recognize the city most down there. It's where the university is. Their bedroom communities. It was a value add every unit and we went in there. That was our first property we bought. We renovated each unit, brought that thing up to probably a class B property. That's in a great area and was able to bring the rents up substantially.
And that was our first one successful process for us.
Ash Patel:
What was the purchase price?
Brian Shafer:
Purchase price on that. I'd have to think back. I want to say that one was 2 million or something like that. Right around 2 million.
Ash Patel:
What year was that?
Brian Shafer:
That we purchased it. That would have been 2019 or 2020.
Ash Patel:
Okay. And do you still own that property today?
Brian Shafer:
We do. Yes.
Ash Patel:
What's the value that today?
Brian Shafer:
We were just going through this last night. I think it was around 2.9 million.
Ash Patel:
And how much money did you put into renovations?
Brian Shafer:
Renovations, I think we're around 6,500 a unit, if I remember correctly.
Ash Patel:
So that is roughly quarter million.
Brian Shafer:
Yeah.
Ash Patel:
And renovations. Okay. What's the plan? Just buy and hold?
Brian Shafer:
Yeah, buy and hold. We've had some people ask why we don't do syndications. We've just been a smaller partnership. We've kept it that way. We like the personal relationship that we have with our investors. Some are close friends and some are just acquaintances, but we've been able to rinse and repeat and reutilize some of those investors on the projects that we have going now. We did another 37 unit multifamily property that's right near the same area in the Tuscola, Tolono area, which is all near Filo.
Ash Patel:
All right, Brian, what did you put down on the 42 unit multifamily property? And this was a big stretch for you guys. I'm assuming it's the first big multifamily that any of you have done.
Brian Shafer:
My partner, Nick, that lives over in Filo, he already had several units. So he had the experience of property management and just that piece of knowledge kind of going into it. So I didn't have to end up putting in any of my own money, but we raised our capital for the renovations and then it was an 80% LTV.
Ash Patel:
Okay. And did you raise the entire capex amount or more or less?
Brian Shafer:
We raised the entire capex amount and we had some reserves. I'd have to go back and look. I wasn't expecting some of these technical questions on that, but I'd have to go back and look and see what the reserves were on that.
Ash Patel:
What kind of loan terms did you have? Do you know interest rate locked in? Was it interest only?
Brian Shafer:
Yeah. So we had interest only, I think I want to say it was 12 to 18 months while we completed renovations, we had to do some non-lease renewals and that was obviously during the pandemic you had in there. So it was hard getting some people out. So it took a little while longer to do the renovations than planned, but we were able to get everybody out and get them all turned.
Ash Patel:
Are you on fixed debt today?
Brian Shafer:
We have fixed debt. It's 20 year am, but a five year balloon. So no agency debt at this point.
Ash Patel:
How many partners did you have on this deal?
Brian Shafer:
We have us as the general partners.
Ash Patel:
How many of that? You've got like six partners total today, but on this 42 unit, how many of you were a team back then?
Brian Shafer:
It had been us six still, which is just three entities. So it's just couples, it was three couples. So three entities on that. And then we had two debt investors and then four equity investors.
Ash Patel:
Okay, two debt and four equity. Brian, you said you didn't bring any money to the table. What was your value to this team?
Brian Shafer:
Great question. Sometimes I ask myself that when I was getting started, but a lot of this is just my construction knowledge. I can usually walk into a building And instead of paying an inspector and somebody going through all this stuff, I can usually walk into a building. I can tell you what's wrong with it. Just by doing the inspections myself, I can estimate what it would cost to repair. I could walk through a small apartment complex and go through each unit, spend about probably anywhere from five to 10 minutes, tell what needs to be done. And also estimate in my head what it would take to renovate that unit and bring it up to a standard that would bring a better tenant.
Ash Patel:
All right. How far did you live from Filo?
Brian Shafer:
I live three and a half hours away from the Filo still today.
Ash Patel:
Filo. Sorry.
Brian Shafer:
Oh, you're good.
Ash Patel:
And how do you add value from three and a half hours away? How often were you on site?
Brian Shafer:
I went down for all the due diligence. Every Tuesday night, we have a weekly call with my partners and we review the status of our properties, how well our property management is doing. And we're part of that weekly remote management, I guess, if you will. And we have a great property manager in place. So for us, it's really easy to manage because we do have such a great property management review that every week.
Ash Patel:
And your other five partners, the person that lives in Filo, I'm assuming that they were also boots on the ground.
Brian Shafer:
They were on site quite often. Yes. Nick lives in Filo. So he's the boots on the ground. He's got experience with some previous properties and if somebody needs something immediately, he can obviously tend to that.
If there's a construction question, which actually about an hour ago or two hours ago I was on the phone with him for a while and a building inspector, because there was a lot of questions that he can't answer about construction or renovations maybe that I can. Even though I'm far away, we're able to do video pictures. I can look at roofs from here by doing videos and having an inspector send us pictures if I'm not down there and I can review them and usually provide advice from that point.
Ash Patel:
Understood. The third partner, it's not six partners, it's three couples. The third partner, where do they live and what was their role?
Brian Shafer:
They live out in LA. They have a strong desire to move to the Midwest. So it's safe to say that with where we're at today, they're gonna be moving here sometime within the next three years. But their role is they put up capital into the first asset, the 42 unit. So they invested some of their own capital.
Ash Patel:
On that, you've got two debt investors and four equity investors. The LA partner, did that person raise all the money or did they contribute their own capital or both?
Brian Shafer:
They contributed their own capital.
Ash Patel:
Sorry, I should have specified. Okay. Thank you for clearing that up. So then did you have five other investors in this deal?
Brian Shafer:
Four other equity outside of him. Okay. So, and that's with the debt investor.
Ash Patel:
How did you structure that? So you also had two debt investors, right? Yeah, we did. Can you explain that structure? And you don't often see this on people's first deals where they have two classes, a debt investor and an equity investor. So I'm really curious, and I'm sure the best ever listeners are too, on how you structured that.
Brian Shafer:
So two equity investors are obviously just, they're going to invest in, I think that one was a 60-40 split, they're going to invest in just the equity portion that we're raising. The debt investors are typically going to be maybe a person that is a little bit older, maybe in their 50s or 60s that has a 401k that they want to invest on just the debt side. So we had two of them that were in that same scenario and they only wanted to invest in the form of a second mortgage.
Ash Patel:
Okay. So they got a straight, was it a 10%?
Brian Shafer:
I, it was eight, I think for both of those. Yes.
Ash Patel:
So these are conservative investors. Here's my money. Just give me 8% annual returns. Yes. Okay. And the equity investors, there's four or two of them. We're going back and forth. Yeah. How many equity investors?
Brian Shafer:
There was four total. One was our partner.
Ash Patel:
Okay. So three equity investors plus your partner who was also an equity investor.
Brian Shafer:
Yes.
Ash Patel:
Okay. So they put the remainder of the funds needed to take the deal down and they received a 60% split or was their share 40?
Brian Shafer:
We were 40. The investors were 60.
Ash Patel:
Got it. Okay. Thank you. That clears it up. So that was a creative approach. Good for you guys for listening to what your investors wanted and giving somebody a preferred debt versus an equity play. So awesome. You also have commercial industrial property. Tell me about that, please.
Brian Shafer:
Yeah. I think that might've been what started this conversation with you and I while back was I stayed pretty quiet on Facebook and probably should speak more about what it is that we do, but I just happened to see a post that you'd made talking about flex space. And I see that it is getting popular. Maybe down in Florida, I've seen some pictures lately on the East coast. And I'm thinking, man, we've been doing this kind of stuff.
Paul Mueller (16:30.354)
For quite a while, there's some buildings around here that are pretty old that are flex space. So when the market was hot and everybody was competing for the multifamily space, obviously we had easy money policy for the last 12 years. And it just became really hard to find good deals for investors because now that we have really kind of established ourselves and had some people wanting to repeat invest, we had more money than deals.
and we wanted to feed them something. So I actually had a couple of guys locally that are friends of mine, and they wanted to invest in the 37 unit that we purchased. I believe it was 11 months after we did the 42 unit. They decided they wanted to have something local that they could learn on, because they actually kind of wanted to be active. So I thought, okay, well, if we find something local, I'll let you know. We would come up empty handed. 99.9% of deals we would look at, we just couldn't compete with some of the other cash that was at play.
It was too much that didn't fit our metrics. So in the meantime, I had this one year contract with a chemical deal and I needed to rent a unit, like a shop. And a friend of mine who owned five of these units, he didn't own it through the lens of an investor. He needed it for his shop, but he happened to rent the other ones out. I told him about house hacking. I said, are you aware that you're in a form, your house hacking is what you're doing. So I explained that to him. And as I'm in there, I'm thinking to myself through the lens of an investor.
Will started to turn and I thought, man, I know what it would take to build one of these shops that has multiple units and there's not much to it. And the maintenance would be low. So I started asking him questions about his rents and how everything is metered, structured from that standpoint. I started working on some numbers in the background. I let my Prosper Real Estate partners know that I was working on something. And we looked at some land, just had some conceptual ideas.
And I started reaching out to contractors. I got a list of all the contractors that I knew I would need from top to bottom. And most contractors will give you bids. So I found a piece of land that I thought was really prime. Contractors are going to be one of your strongest tenant base for these flex spaces in the Midwest. They usually need two things. They need menards and a gas station. And there's a piece of land next to menards here in Iowa city that I knew would be a great spot. So, we looked at that plot and I took that to a local engineering firm and I said, here's this plot that we're looking at. How many units at, we just took a guess 30 by 40, how many units could we fit on this plot? The engineers, they know how to do that. So it came out to be 20 units at 1200 square foot a piece. Well, I knew what my friend Nate was getting for his rents and I thought we could at least probably be $1,200 a month but I under wrote everything at 1,050 a month to be consistent with our conservative underwriting approach through my prosper partners. And it hit one day, I thought, hey guys, this is what we have to do. We have to go this route. We'll let everybody continue fighting over the multifamily deals. Let's go this route because they're under supplied in the Iowa city Cedar Rapids area, which is our two major metrics, Iowa city Cedar Rapids and Des Moines. It was a brick to the face. It was like, this is the route we gotta go.
Ash Patel:
What was the build cost on this property?
Brian Shafer:
The 20 unit that I'm referring to, our very first one was $88 a square foot.
Ash Patel:
When was that built?
Brian Shafer:
We've just finished that July one, we got our temporary certificate of occupancy.
Ash Patel:
And what will that rent out for?
Brian Shafer:
We're renting each unit base unit for 1200. We have roughly per foot per foot or a dollar a square foot.
Ash Patel:
Okay. So $12 a foot. I know different parts of the country do this differently. Yeah. You're a dollar per foot per month. Yep. And that's how a lot of the Western people calculate dollar per square foot on the east side of the country in the Midwest, we typically do annual. So if it's $12 per square foot, that means it's a dollar per month per square foot. Okay. I'm going to call it $12 a square foot.
Brian Shafer:
Sure.
Ash Patel:
Now I want to pause there for a second because I want to illustrate that. What does it cost to build new multifamily per foot?
Brian Shafer:
Per foot. You're about anywhere from 200 to $210 a square foot.
Ash Patel:
Okay. That's if you build it really well, really efficiently. I've seen as high as 320 and higher. But okay, let's just say for argument's sake, $200 per square foot. You built this for about half. Now multifamily rents per square foot. Do you know what they would be?
Brian Shafer:
Multifamily rents per square foot. It depends again on where you're at. Things are a lot cheaper here, but let's just say you had a 1200 square foot townhome or condo that you built. You could be anywhere from 1200 to probably 1600 dollars a unit.
Ash Patel:
So a dollar, dollar 20 per square foot? Yeah. Okay, so best ever listeners, I want you to understand this. Your build cost is less than half and your rent is almost the same in this example. And I've done a lot of these metrics where I've seen the build cost is a third of multifamily and rent is a half all very conservative numbers. So it's cheaper to build relatively flex-based building versus multifamily and the rents aren't that much cheaper. So it's a no-brainer, man. I'm with you. Anybody building multifamily today, even building retail, why wouldn't you just build flex? And take it a step further, anybody that's building self-storage, stop. Build 16-foot ceilings, 14-foot bay doors, call it flex instead of self storage. 1500 square foot units, just build them taller and you get twice the rent versus self storage, at least. Yeah. So in the webinar, I think that you're talking about, if you Google Ash Patel flex space for the best ever group, I did a webinar where we just broke down flex space. So yes, I'm glad you found that. And are you building additional flex units?
Brian Shafer:
Yeah. So that 20 unit, I'll jump back that real quick. That 20 unit we had projected that we would maybe be 50% least up when we were done with half the build. We were a little under that. When we got done with the build, it took us about four weeks and we have two units left and we got a guy very interested in that's actually two people that are interested in taking those two units. So it's a very easy possibility that we could be a hundred percent least up within the next couple of weeks.
Ash Patel:
I'll give you some more unsolicited advice. Another option you could potentially do is condo wise those units. So instead of selling them on the market at market prices, they're more valuable to the owners that are currently renting them. So if you go to the owner and say, hey, Mr. and Mrs. So-and-so, I get it you're paying $2,000 per month in rent. How about this, pay $1,800 in a mortgage instead of rent and you can own this property. And that could potentially be your highest and best exit strategy.
Brian Shafer:
Yes. So all of ours are in a condo regime in case we did want to transition to do that. And what started that is we had one company out of Des Moines actually offered to buy the entire site and want us to finish it. We had multiple offers to buy that we didn't want to sell, but we did go ahead and have our attorney put everything into a condo regime or condo docs. We call it here in case we wanted to peel those off or sell them as a mortgage separately.
Ash Patel:
Brilliant. Good move on that.
Brian Shafer:
Thank you.
Ash Patel:
All right. Awesome. Earlier on, Brian, you mentioned the nutrition company and you know, this is a real estate podcast, but I feel like you probably learned some pretty good lessons. What was a big lesson you learned on that endeavor?
Brian Shafer:
That was hard. That one hurt the heart for a couple of years and took the moderate cover out of that one. We have nothing but to get that thing. Go ahead. What was it? What were you going to say?
Ash Patel:
I know these are hard to share, but I'll share. No, I don't mind. Similar. So back in the day it was literally 20 years ago, I started a company called Amazon Supplements. Okay. It was a sports supplement company. And this is when Amazon only sold books. So I figured, cool, I could trademark Amazon supplements. Well, we were in business for a year. We worked very, very hard, started making a decent amount of money. And then we got a cease and desist from Amazon. We had to turn over all of our intellectual property or domain name to them. And they never even sold supplements until we turned everything over to them. So that was a great lesson learned. Yeah. But go ahead. I want to. Yeah.
Brian Shafer:
So like I said, we didn't have anything. We had to go to those 21 banks over the course of three years. And when you finally make something happen, you're thinking, this is unbelievable. We finally got it. It was a fairly young age and we worked it. We did it right. We did the model. We advertised, we did everything. We had a beautiful brand new store that we had built from scratch. Everything was great, but we were a little bit before our time.
The lesson though, the one thing that neither one of us knew that we didn't think to look far ahead enough into, I should have had somebody that was really, really sharp at business look over the model. I looked over the model thinking, okay, well, if we sell X number of supplements per week, per month, we're gonna be able to pay our lease and we'll take some minimal draws. But the way that the franchise was set up to reorder product, you never really could get ahead.
The product that you sold, the margins on the stuff that sold the most was the margins that had the smallest. So you could sell everything you wanted, but you had to go reorder that inventory that was lost. You'd have to reorder it and your cost of goods didn't have enough margin for you to get ahead to keep stacking and getting yourself enough capital to kind of keep moving forward. You couldn't increase marketing. The developer that had this new shopping center also didn't hold his end of the bargain up festivals in there and there was supposed to be a Casey's general store across the street. I don't know if you guys have those but there's 3500 of those stores, very popular gas station, but this guy didn't want it across the street and he had some pull there and that would have brought traffic to that intersection. So that development, I go by there frequently and it's still struggling. There's only three stores in a 12 unit. Very nice, very high-end strip mall. So not knowing that business model well enough, that was the lesson.
Ash Patel:
Yeah. And best ever listeners ask for help. Yes. And there's a fair number of resources out there for business development scores. There's a lot. Awesome, man. Thanks for sharing that. And yes, it is hard for a lot of us to ask for help, but I promise if you start doing it, you'll be rewarded significantly. All right, Brian, you ready for the best ever lightning round?
Brian Shafer:
I am.
Ash Patel:
All right. What is the best ever book you recently read?
Brian Shafer:
Best ever book I recently read would be more of a self-development book, and it's the second time I've read it. The Untethered Soul is a book that will help, I think, people stay calm during moments of when you're trying to really build a business and you're getting rejected and you got stress of the build your way up. So, The Untethered Soul would be one that's not real estate related. But a real estate related book, I think people should understand economics if you're gonna be a great real estate investor. And economics is something for some reason I've had a passion for it at a very young age. So I started learning about it, reading. I took care of my 401k when I had a job. So I read a book called A Random Walk Down Wall Street by Burton Malkiel. And that book really helped to implant the inner workings of the financial economy and how it works. And it really helped me understand that.
Ash Patel:
Brian, what's the best ever way you like to give back?
Brian Shafer:
People say that I really love helping people. It's what makes me feel the best out of anything that we're doing.
I'm really close with the Iowa wrestling team and a lot of those former wrestlers. And two of them actually, I was just talking to this morning, two of those guys live out in Pennsylvania now for coaching jobs. And they'll ask me questions and I'll look at deals for them. And the one before he left a couple months ago, he had just finished up and graduated here at Iowa. That was when we started our first new development up here in Iowa City. He would just come to hang out with me during the day and I would take him into meetings and led him right along, explained to him and show him how to analyze apartment complexes and showed him a little bit about the three different industrial developments that we have going on here.
Ash Patel:
And Brian, how can the best ever listeners reach out to you?
Brian Shafer:
I'm on Facebook and Instagram, Brian Shafer. My email is probably the best way if it's for business. It's B. Shafer. So B-S-H-A-F-E-R at Prosper hyphen R-E-I.
Ash Patel:
Awesome Brian. Thank you so much for your time today sharing your story back in the younger days Your dad would get you out on construction sites work with tools Zigzag the corporate career your own business and found your calling in commercial real estate So thank you for that whole journey today. You bet that beer Best ever listeners. Thank you for joining us If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a five-star review share this podcast with someone you think can benefit from it. Also follow, subscribe and have a best ever day.
