Robert Rivani, a self-described disrupter of real estate, is the president of the commercial real estate investment company, Black Lion. He focuses on distressed and affected markets he can improve through drastic remodeling and attracting new tenants with staying power. In this episode, Robert tells us about how Black Lion is disrupting the hospitality industry in Miami, his fundamental belief regarding debt, and why he thrives on volatility.
According to Robert, most investors in the Miami market focus on building a high-rise, then the ground-floor retail. However, it’s become evident that securing a major anchor or special hospitality tenant on the ground floor can change the dynamic of the building above it. That’s what Black Lion specializes in. “There are certain gems that people just don’t pay attention to, for good or bad, and just can’t see the vision,” he says. “That’s where I come in … it’s just that reimagining of what retail and hospitality can look like.”
Robert has never had higher than a 50% loan-to-value ratio when it comes to his portfolio, and he says he intends to keep it that way. “I have a fundamental belief that debt is what will kill you if the market turns,” Robert says. “So I always believe in the 1031 method that if a property, for the most part, hits its peak, it’s time to move on to the next deal.”
Robert likes it when markets start to get shaky because it breeds opportunity — case in point, he did $260M in deals during COVID. “When other people are fearful, it’s probably a good time to go out and try to figure out ways to make money,” he says.
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TRANSCRIPT
Slocomb Reed: Best Ever listeners, welcome to the Best Real Estate Investing Advice Ever Show. I'm Slocomb Reed and I'm here with Robert Rivani. Robert is joining us from LA. He's the president of Black Lion, which specializes in hospitality-focused projects and retail centers. Currently, the GP of 13 properties, including restaurants and retail. Robert, can you start us off with a little more about your background and what you're currently focused on?
Robert Rivani: Sure, I’d be happy to. Thanks for having me. Black Lion pretty much, in a nutshell - we like to call ourselves the disruptors of real estate. What I mean by that is we come into markets that have been distressed or affected and try to change things up, whether that's hospitality buildings that have been empty for some years. We can put our own spin onto things, specifically in the Miami markets where our focus is right now for the hospitality, which is the one arm of Black Lion. And the second arm of Black Lion is these dominant power centers or shopping centers with major anchor tenants that haven't had any love for years. And we come in and do these epic remodels and bring in a whole new slew of tenants that are anti-Amazon and that can survive in today's world. Those are the two focuses for us.
Slocomb Reed: Gotcha. Focus is on hospitality and retail power centers, with an emphasis right now on Miami. I've got to ask - you consider yourself a disruptor... How do you disrupt the hospitality industry in a market like Miami?
Robert Rivani: That's a great question. Up until a couple of years ago, Miami did not have a lot of food and beverage and a lot of hospitality that you're seeing right now, where you're seeing every single week there's a new headline of a major restaurant group. Yeah, you've had your nightclubs, and Miami always had that sex appeal, but was always --I don't want to say always middle of the way, but it didn't have tons and tons. You didn't have a lot of people from LA, or from New York or from overseas. After the pandemic, just due to Miami's regulations of being more open during COVID, you saw a swarm of people coming into the market that were excited about seeing what the hospitality and nightlife were like there.
The disruption part of it, I would say, is that most people would focus on building a high-rise and then the ground floor retail, which is most of the stuff we buy is just aftermath. Versus you're starting to see that if you have a major anchor tenant or a special hospitality tenant on the ground floor, that could change the dynamic of the building above, because you could say you're part of that tenant’s vibe, like Vegas, for example. You have access on the ground floor, people will stay at one hotel, because they're excited about what's convenient or right downstairs to them. You're starting to see that play out significantly more than the Miami market, where the ground floor is almost that draw for the rest of the project. It's not just a regular apartment building that nobody's excited about or a regular hotel that nobody's excited about.
Slocomb Reed: This does sound exciting. Can you give us a particular example of where you've done this, where you have a first-floor tenant with some appeal that adds to your ability to attract guests for the upper floors?
Robert Rivani: Sure. So there was a property, one of my first in Brickell, which is called Brickell Bay Boardwalk, which - property was on the ground floor of a pretty beat up building, 50, 60-year-old building. The space on the ground floor which was adjacent to a Marina was empty for 40 years or 50 years. A long time it was used as a commissary hall for employees, and it's right on the water in front of the marina. I spent millions and millions of dollars of re-gutting that entire space, opening up the exterior, opening it up to the water and making a space that people are excited about where you can actually get off of a dock, dock your boat, and come to the restaurant.
We signed recently Delilah Hospitality. Brands like Delilah just opened up in Las Vegas in the Wynn Hotel, and Nice Guy and other couple of brands, they brought their flagship into this building.
I signed one of the largest nightclub and hospitality users out of Turkey, and we're in the process of signing our last tenant, and we're bringing a property that was once upon a time vacant for 40, 50 years to three brand new businesses that are going to change that whole Marina and that walking area of that particular property. So it's situations like that. There's certain gems that people don't pay attention to for good or bad and can't see the vision. And that's where I come in and I reimagine certain properties. I've done that on my Wynwood projects, to the South Beach properties that I own... So it's just that reimagining of what retail and hospitality can look like.
Slocomb Reed: Let's stick with this property by the arena as an example of what it is that you guys do. When did you close on it?
Robert Rivani: When we bought it?
Slocomb Reed: Yeah.
Robert Rivani: Five years ago or so.
Slocomb Reed: Okay, gotcha. So I'll get back to that in a second. You bring in three exciting retail tenants. How much of the building does that leave you with for hospitality?
Robert Rivani: It's actually all hospitality. It's three spaces and all three of them are hospitality restaurant tenants.
Slocomb Reed: Okay, so this is not a situation where you have a hotel-style space above that?
Robert Rivani: There is, but that's separate from what I own. Typically, when I buy my units, it's typically the ground floor. When I say retail portion of a high rise, it's the same thing, I use it synonymously with a restaurant portion. So you have the option to go retail or restaurant. My forte or my specialty is more of the restaurant. That's what I decided, to put all three tenants in that situation.
Slocomb Reed: Gotcha. So you're bringing immense value to whoever owns the hospitality space above you. Do you have any sort of arrangement to collaborate with them on the value that you're bringing?
Robert Rivani: Not yet, because I look at it as a partnership, because it's a win-win for both of us. Them building something special above us or them being committed to keeping the building or buildings in the first-class condition only helps my situation. For example, if a building doesn't run proper valet or doesn't run proper operations or it's dirty all the time, then it makes my situation bad, and vice versa. They don't want me to bring a fast-food shop on the ground floor of their brand new SLS Hotel. So it's kind of that marriage, because one of the buildings I bought actually is the ground floor of an SLS in Brickell, which is probably the best space in the entire country for hospitality. They were very strict. They want certain standards and vice versa. That's why I bought it, because they keep certain standards and bring in a certain clientele, so it's a great synergy for both of us.
Slocomb Reed: Gotcha. It's like, you're going to do your thing, they're going to do their thing, you're both going to excel at it, and through proximity, you guys are both going to thrive and build off of one another's successes.
Robert Rivani: Absolutely.
Slocomb Reed: That's awesome. Let's talk about the numbers on this one. Did you raise capital for this deal?
Robert Rivani: No.
Slocomb Reed: No, you did this all yourself? Have you raised capital for any of your deals?
Robert Rivani: Not one time.
Slocomb Reed: Gotcha. You said you've had this one for five years. It sounds like it's fully... Stabilized may not be the right word to use in your situation, but it sounds like you have it fully tenanted, things are going really smoothly. Is your targeted hold period forever or are you planning to sell the space?
Robert Rivani: That's a great question. It's something I actually ask myself all the time. Black Lion has a much bigger vision at this time. So right now, I own probably more of the ground floor hospitality than most any developer in the market. It's becoming my specialty. And a lot of developers are reaching out to me because they can see how quickly I can turn around these spaces. I have a vision of accumulating as much of this ground floor as possible and almost turning it into a REIT type of situation where if I decided to crowdfund and sell it to the crowdfund, I could do that, or if I decide to sell it to one of these big institutions that want to gobble up this much space, the only way to buy that many ground-floor spaces is going to be through me. That has a premium at the end of the day.
So I just haven't decided yet, because it's still in motion and we're still actively buying. I just bought another building about a month ago or so. So I'm still in buying mode right now. Right now, the exit’s not something I'm really focused on as much.
Slocomb Reed: Gotcha. I'd like to put this in terms that correspond to other commercial real estate asset classes. Correct me where I'm wrong in summarizing what I'm hearing from you, Robert. You're in an acquisitions mode where you're going to continue building your portfolio that you hold privately without bringing in other investors until you get into the size of a portfolio that institutional players want to play in because when you get to that space, or the size where an institutional buyer is interested in your whole portfolio, or you're able to crowdfund the portfolio, you'll be doing it at a compressed cap rate and a significantly greater return to yourself. Is that what I'm hearing?
Robert Rivani: Correct. The gist of it. Yeah.
Slocomb Reed: Okay, awesome. What do the returns look like currently on this property now that it's fully stabilized five years in?
Robert Rivani: I tend to not talk about returns just because of competitors and not having them know why I'm doing what I'm doing and what potential returns look like. As much as I would love to tell you, it's probably the secret sauce. Look, I'd say the returns are great. If not, obviously I wouldn't be doing it. There's just a lot of hard work that goes into some of these buildings, that if we do have exponential returns on some of these projects, it's because we're doing things...
For example, the Marina property I just mentioned to you, it took me three years to get this building permanent and constructed. It wasn't as simple as "I've got a space and I turned around and leased it." These are serious projects where you're dealing with like FEMA and hurricane-rated loans. I could say it's very intense. I'd say that because of that higher risk, because of that higher volatility in hand comes better returns, but it also has its risk factors to it as well.
Slocomb Reed: I totally get where you're coming from, at least at an empathetic level. I'm an apartment owner-operator, cut-and-dry. We talk about all of our numbers; what we do is very easily duplicatable, and I've never spent three years setting up anything, other than maybe my college education which took four.
Let me ask another question that's related that doesn't get into specifics. As an apartment investor, I'm a value-add-distressed guy, I force appreciation and then I cash-out refi, that's my play. That is significantly more complicated to do in your arena than in mine. Having a value add or a BRRRR-style mindset, where I'm going to go in and invest heavily knowing that there is a time in the future when I can pull all of my funds back out on solid long-term debt to redeploy into the next project - what does the capacity to do that look like in your space?
Robert Rivani: That's a great question. It's actually one of the most controversial topics I have with people on my social media platform.
Slocomb Reed: Really?
Robert Rivani: Oh yeah, because people --not specifically yourself-- but you're being taught the Grant Cardone method. A lot of methods of, "Take the property to a certain value, pull out all your money, and then go on to the next because your money is just sitting there at that point. It's not your money, it’s the lender’s money, and you're making the difference on cash on cash." I don't believe in that at all. And not to say that I've never done it, but I don't believe that is the right method for equity growth, at least.
Where I started from, I tried to build as much money as I possibly could in terms of equity, because I think that equity is more important than cash flow. Because if you build enough equity to a certain point, you can just decide to hold them and they'll spin off that cash flow. Versus if you're holding on to cash flow and assets that are fully occupied, typically, I don't know about apartments but typically, your growth on rent is 3% a year, 5% a year if you're at 100% stabilization. So the ability to grow your equity is significantly limited. What you're doing by doing these cash-out refi’s is you're starting to over-leverage.
Let's say you have a $10 million property, it's appraised for 15 million bucks. You say I'm going to get 66% loan to value on this, I pull out to the $10 million, I'm into it for not a single penny anymore. It's the bank's money and I'm going to take that money and go reinvest it. Well, now you're starting to over-leverage. Now, you're starting to stack up your debt. In my whole portfolio, at all times, I've never been higher than 50%, 45% loan to value, ever. And I will never do it, because I have a fundamental belief that that's the thing that will kill you if the market turns. I always believe in the 1031 method that if a property, for the most part, hits its peak, it's time to move on to the next deal.
Break: [00:13:13] – [00:15:00]
Slocomb Reed: Robert, let me play devil's advocate here. I'd love for you to disagree with me and prove me wrong. Let's go at each other. Apartment investing, there are way fewer moving parts and it is a less volatile asset class than the kind of retail that you invest in. In the event of a market downturn or pandemic economic crisis, it's much less likely that commercial multifamily would be impacted to the degree that the kind of retail and hospitality that you are doing do. Of course, there will be outliers in that, but across the board, apartments are not going to be hit as hard as other things. Therefore, it's much easier for us to have higher leverage, because our cash flow is much more stable. And so long as we're fixing long-term debt at low-interest rates, our returns are going to lessen in a downturn, but it's not like we're risking the portfolio, to your point, if we're doing 66% loan to value, getting back the whole $10 million and leaving $5 million in equity and making sure that we have positive cash flow, and a conservative underwriting in the event that there's some negativity here. So I see where you're coming from, but I don't think it's necessarily over-leveraging in the apartment space. Are you in agreement with me here? It sounds like you disagree.
Robert Rivani: I think you made a great point and I can't sit there and say that the perspective you're talking about when it comes to purely risking a deal in foreclosure is not high in your situation. My argument and where I disagree is, if you're talking about high-growth situations, or if you're trying to equity build, that in the example we just talked about, if it's if the building is worth $15 million and you take a $10 million loan on it, you're leaving $5 million on the table that you could go reinvest into another property and buy another $15 million building if you want to over-leverage; or you can buy a $10 million building. The point that I'm trying to make when it comes to this type of investing is that I believe if you have money sitting at a 4% --I don't know what a typical apartment's return is-- but lately it has been 4%. Say it's a good outlier market 5%, 5.5%, it's not main core area.
Slocomb Reed: On cap rate, sure.
Robert Rivani: On cap rate. That if you're letting your equity sit for a 5% return, where's your equity appreciation on that deal? You're sitting for a 5% return with 3% increases, versus - what is your typical return on a redevelopment of apartment? If you're buying it for $10 million in two years, what do you expect to exit for?
Slocomb Reed: That's a great question. I think that most people who are buying $10 million apartments right now are underwriting to a three to seven-year hold and not being as aggressive as you or I would. If I'm buying an apartment building for $10 million, personally, the way that I like to invest, 18 to 24 months out, it will have to be worth at least $13.5 million or $14 million.
Robert Rivani: Okay, so it's a great example. Pretty much by that example, you're saying, “Hey, look, it's a two-year exit that my money to me investing $10 million is worth 20% per year, give or take.” But we just said that if you hold it, best case, you're talking about 3% increases to 4% increases over the prior year. So you have a difference and a delta of 15% you can be making if you put your money to work and doing that grind all over again. That's the point that I'm trying to say, that if you're confident in your business... Which last year I bought and sold $260 million or $270 million in deals. "Why are you selling everything you own? What's going on?” I said to them, “Look, if a property is at its peak, if it's hit its market rents, if it's gotten all the value out of it, there's only one way it could go."
The downside is a lot more likely than the upside, and upsides capped. Tenants have leases. What are you going to do? But the downside of a situation of a hurricane coming or some tenants leaving, there's an issue in the building, your downside is a lot more likely than upside. For me, like yourself, if you're not making 25%, 30% per year, or 20% per year, then what are you doing in this business? Go put your money in the S&P at 8% or 9% and leverage that and call it a day. That's my methodology. That equity building, at least when you're starting - like myself, I started with very little money, hundreds of thousands of dollars - that cycle to grow equity by holding and refi-ing with two to four-year holds, you're not going to be worth $100 million for 30, 40 years. It's just going to take too long.
Slocomb Reed: Robert, I started out thinking I was playing devil's advocate. It turns out I agree with you completely. I didn't understand the point that you were making. When COVID started, I thought I was being a thought leader, putting together a little book study, do it over Zoom kind of thing. And the book that we read was The Complete Guide to Buying and Selling Apartments by Steve Burgess. Any chance you're familiar with Steve Burgess? He's purely an apartments guy, but I haven't heard a single person in this space mention that book outside of my own book study. His point, specific to apartments, is exactly what you are saying. The time during the lifecycle of the asset that you are forcing appreciation is the time at which you are experiencing the most growth. And the faster you can force appreciation, the faster you get that growth.
If you know that you can take an apartment building from $10 million to $13.5 million, and you can do it in two years or you can do it in five years, your return is greater doing it in two years. Plus, the kinds of returns that you can get during the forced appreciation phase, going from $10 million to $13.3 million annualized is a 17.5% return, just doing that on all cash, without any debt. If you're doing it with debt, you're more than doubling your money in two years, most likely, if it's an apartment deal. Steve Berges’ argument is the same as yours for apartment investors.
Robert Rivani: I like this guy.
Slocomb Reed: Yeah. You've doubled, tripled your money already, sell the building, 1031 into the next one, go get yourself twice as much real estate, and go do the same thing. Eventually, you get to the point where you may want to live on cash flow or relax, or you get to the point of a portfolio that is attractive to an institutional buyer, or that can be crowd-funded the way you said. But the fastest way to get there is going to be to force appreciation, use debt --specifically the apartment space-- use good debt, to be able to double your money or better in one or two years forcing appreciation and distressed assets, and then sell so that you can redeploy all of that capital to double it again or triple it again in the next two years.
Robert Rivani: For sure. Let me add one point to that, because a lot of people have - and I have this argument with a lot of my friends. Because most of my friends are in the residential game, I'm one of the only ones in the commercial game. And they sit here and they brag to me saying, “Robert, I'm making so much money, cash on cash." "What kind of debt are you taking on?” "Oh, we're getting this high leverage loan 10%, where we put 10% down and 10% interest rate with two points.” I'm like, “Guys, the market turns one time and you can’t sell these deals. You're going under. Great, your cash on cash is fantastic.” That is not the way I underwrite deals. I always underwrite on total cost and what my percent return on total cost is. Because especially as you continue to exchange, you're never going to find that perfect deal because if you made extra cash, you're going to find perfectly dollar for dollar. You should always go percent return on investment.
That's the way I look at it for all my deals, and that’s what's worked out for me, thank God to this point. But it's just a lot of people get hung up on this total cash-on-cash return, and that leads people saying like, “We just can't take more and more from the bank. I just can’t take more and more from the bank, and we get these variable interest rates.” It's scary and some people get away with it and it's great. But what scares me is when you go to exchange your property and you have to maintain that loan amount, you're going to have to carry that debt on to every single future deal.
Let me give you a perfect example. A buddy of mine bought a deal for $10 million, put $1.5 million down and he said, “Well, I could sell it for $11.5 million.” I'm like, “Okay...” and he said, “Robert, I can make 150% or 100% cash-on-cash. It's amazing. I'm doubling my money in 12 months.” I’m like, “Yeah, that's great but when you sell it, now you have to go find $11 million to $12 million deal again and take that same leverage and keep doing it.” You're risking a lot to make a little. I don't like that. That scares me when it comes to deals. I'd rather put 25% down so I make 30%, 40% on the back end, and I continue that same leverage going forward more and more.
Slocomb Reed: One last question before we transition to the last segment of our episode. Robert, we've been experiencing a growing, bullish real estate economy for about 10 years now. It's been really easy to make the argument “buy, force appreciation, sell, buy, force appreciation, sell,” to grow and gain equity. We're recording at the end of April 2022, interest rates have been doing crazy things for the last four months, especially during April. And there's a possibility that cap rates are going into expansion instead of compressing the way that they have for the last several years. Does that give you pause at all? Does that make you think that it might be a good time to hold on to your property, see what happens, see if it's better to wait? Let cap rates compress again before you sell so that you can sell for a higher dollar amount in the future? Or do you say, “Go ahead and sell now even though cap rates have increased?” Capitalize on a game that's just smaller than it would have been if cap rates did lower.
Robert Rivani: That's a great, fantastic question. It's got multiple avenues you can go from it, so sorry if this becomes a conversation versus just an answer. Look, it depends on your own skill. For me, interest rates are spiking, people are already starting to see the expansion of cap rates, it's already starting to happen. My rates have gone up 100 basis points just in the past month, month and a half. Does that affect me? Not really. It doesn't really kill me at the end of day when it comes to buying deals. No, because I'm not looking at it as buying a cash-flowing deal where I'm making a spread on the debt, and I need to hit an 8% or 9% internal rate of return.
Slocomb Reed: You're not selling right now, so it doesn't impact your decision on selling it. Does it impact your decision on buying?
Robert Rivani: Look, to me - I like volatility. I like when markets start to get shaky because that breeds opportunity. If everything's hunky-dory and everyone's happy all the time, and everyone's getting great returns, they're thinking that mindset, “What if cap rates compress?” That's bad for me. I did most of my deals in COVID. I bought, like I said, $260 million in deals and sold during COVID. I like those markets. When other people are fearful, it's probably a good time to go out and try to figure out ways to make money.
With that being said, I'm also not a gunslinger in the same way. "We're in a really hot market. I'm just going to buy whatever because it's just naturally going to appreciate because the market’s hot."
So I'm being more selective when it comes to what I'm buying, and I'm not thinking three years out, two years out. I'm thinking, “Hey, what if 12 months if a recession does come about, because there's a strong possibility that it will?” I'm definitely thinking that it's time to be a little bit conservative and making sure you're not overstepping, but at the same time, taking advantage of the fear that's starting to percolate in the market for potential new purchases and getting prices that once weren't available. [unintelligible 00:26:13.29] people have that mentality of maybe it's time to get out, because 100 basis points on commercial deals with huge NOIs makes millions and millions of dollars difference on the exit. I'd say it's 99% more likely cap rates will expand than compress in a high inflation market and in a high-interest rate market.
Slocomb Reed: Volatility breeds opportunity.
Robert Rivani: For sure. Without a doubt.
Slocomb Reed: Awesome. Are you ready for the Best Ever lightning round?
Robert Rivani: Let's do it.
Slocomb Reed: Robert, what's the Best Ever book you've recently read?
Robert Rivani: I've never read a book.
Slocomb Reed: What is your Best Ever way to give back?
Robert Rivani: I do a lot of donations and events for children. We actually just did an event a Harry Potter-inspired magic show for autistic kids a couple of days ago for 30, 40 of them in a school and we're throwing a big carnival. I love helping kids and giving back to the community.
Slocomb Reed: That's great. In your real estate investing career thus far, what's the biggest mistake you've made and the Best Ever lesson you've learned because of it?
Robert Rivani: The worst mistake I ever made is I bought a property in San Diego that I did not realize was on an Indian-protected site, or what I thought was like a waterway going through the property, that was nothing was. It was protected Indian land, because there were certain things inside that protected creek, and it ended up costing me an extra $2 million in construction budget to build over this protected creek and put in this brand-new grocery store development that I’d had. That was the biggest learning experience I've ever had. So make sure you check that when it comes to land purchases.
Slocomb Reed: The mistake was insufficient due diligence, especially in a high regulatory area like California or San Diego, California.
Robert Rivani: Yeah. I had no idea. Even if I wanted to do it with due diligence which I always do, the phase one reports and all those kinds, Indian burial sites - I was just "What are you talking about here?" I was completely blown away. It definitely educated me significantly.
Slocomb Reed: Makes a lot of sense. Robert, what is your Best Ever advice?
Robert Rivani: My Best Ever advice, especially when it comes to real estate is don't try to buy into the hype of what everybody else is doing. Just because one person is making a lot of money that you think automatically that you could be a real estate investor as well. Gain as much knowledge as you can about the specific sector or market you're looking to invest in.
Like you said, read books or read articles or try to find out as much local information as you can so you don't make the mistake like I just [unintelligible 00:28:31.29] that can be possible. Knowledge is more important than anything. That'd be my advice.
Slocomb Reed: Robert, where can people get in touch with you?
Robert Rivani: Social media, Instagram is probably the best spot to reach out to and have connections with my followers and whatnot.
Slocomb Reed: Great. Link to Robert’s Instagram will be included in the show notes. Robert, thank you. Best Ever listeners, thank you as well. If you gained value from this conversation with Robert about the style of investing that he does, forcing appreciation, being willing to take on high risk, multiple variable deals, and choosing growth over cash flow. If you've gained value from this conversation, please do subscribe to our show. Leave us a five-star review and share this with a friend who you think would gain value from listening to this conversation as well. Thank you and have a Best Ever day.
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